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Contemplating Germany with Nukes

One of the questions Zenpundit Mark Safranski and his readers are thinking about in this holiday season is:

If the EU has genuinely changed the twenty century-long warlike character of Europeans to apathetic, bureaucratic, declinists why does the idea of Germany with nuclear weapons still give everyone pause ?

Is that really the case? How many folks are contemplating these days whether Germany would violate the non-proliferation treaty and waste billions of Euros to get nukes?

John Jay responds to the Zenpundit in the group blog Chicago Boyz. He says that he does not worry about Germany or Japan if they obtain nukes in the near term, but also states:

Certain cultures tend to fall prey to militaristic regimes. Germany, Russia and Japan are all such cultures - conformist, hierarchical, and clannish.

Sorry, I can't respond right now. Naughty Hitler [NSFW] just ordered me to get back to my clan to celebrate Christmas and plan the next world war.

Happy Holidays everyone!  Enjoy your Zen meditation about the future of the free world.  Get inspired by the Queen's Christmas Broadcast from 1957. (German politicians' Christmas messages do not change that much over the decades either.)  And if you want to get sentimental about war in "the good old days," then read about the 1914 and 1915 Christmas Truce.

Related posts in the Atlantic Review: WSJ: Russia and Jihadists Target America's "Giant Aircraft Carrier with Sausages", United States Apparently Removes Nuclear Weapons from German Base Ramstein, and A World Free of Nuclear Weapons?.

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Anonymous on :

Here is a video/song about the Christmas truce: [url]http://www.blogsofwar.com/2007/12/25/the-christmas-truce-of-1914/[/url]

Kyle - Atlantic Review on :

"How many folks are contemplating these days whether Germany would violate the non-proliferation treaty and waste billions of Euros to get nukes?" My guess would be none. Wait, is Dr. Strangelove originally a German? If so, then maybe one. Germany can't even seem to squeeze out the euros for important conventional military upgrades... perhaps any "pause" given comes from a more visceral concern about nuclear weapons proliferation unassociated with Germany? Or perhaps there is some merit to this statement: "Certain cultures tend to fall prey to militaristic regimes. Germany, Russia and Japan are all such cultures - conformist, hierarchical, and clannish" Russia sure seems to be unable to prosper without a strong degree of centralization. Is there a sentiment that Germany is bound for greatness, and that it will always be the leader of Europe (and perhaps more)? A British friend told me this weekend that in his perspective, "Germany is Europe".

Kevin Sampson on :

I don’t know why the idea of Germany with nuclear weapons should give anyone pause when the idea of Iran with them apparently doesn’t.

Kyle - Atlantic Review on :

@ Kevin: "I don’t know why the idea of Germany with nuclear weapons should give anyone pause when the idea of Iran with them apparently doesn’t." What makes you say nobody takes pause with Iran having nuclear weapons? If anything, I think there is an argument that the US and its allies have overstated the concern about Iran getting nuclear weapons, especially given the latest NIE.

Mr. Bingley on :

[url=http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/mlf-lull.htm]Here's a song[/url] to sing while you find a place for all those centrifuges in your apartment, Joerg.

John in Michigan, USA on :

Naughty Joerg, dropping the name of Hitler all over the place! Merry Christmas to you. I hope Santa brings you lots of coal, it will help your clan during those long, cold RUSSIAN WINTERS! HA! --- You know, if Germany wanted to become a world power on the cheap, nuclear weapons would be a big help. When it comes to maximum deterrence per defense dollar, you can't beat nukes. Remember [url=http://atlanticreview.org/archives/938-Arrogant-Germans-See-Their-Country-as-a-World-Power.html#c11398]that discussion[/url] (starts at comment #3.2.1.1) I had with Zyme about the possible flaws of the "just-in-time" defense force (i.e. keep updating your military industrial technology, without actually building anything much unless you are threatened)? Well, a nuclear "shield" would somewhat reduce the flaw. Also, since nukes don't require a huge number of well-trained, disciplined personnel, they are perhaps less likely to promote a military mind-set in society. Of course, this is all hypothetical.

joe on :

John, Having and using are two very different things. Besides weapons development one also has to develop the delivery systems to get them on target. The delivery systems are probably more difficult to develop. Do you actually think the Germans would authorize the use of nuclear weapons? I do not. It would undermine their sense of moral superiority. Besides whom are they going to use them against? The US? Realizing Germans see the US as the greatest threat to world peace. And just what protection is this “nuclear shield” going to provide against a terrorist attack? Then again you might consider that Germany is more vulnerable to a nuclear attack than it is to a terrorist attack. BUT, I would like to see Germany with nuclear weapons. In fact, I think the US should encourage this by withdrawing its current nuclear shield from Europe. Then Germans could decide if having nuclear weapons is something they want or would they rather continue to press of a nuclear free Europe.

John in Michigan, USA on :

Please understand, my comment above only applies to a discussion that took place in the comments section of another, mostly unrelated, post, to which I linked. It was a hypothetical discussion. Very hypothetical.

Kyle - Atlantic Review on :

@ Joe: "BUT, I would like to see Germany with nuclear weapons. In fact, I think the US should encourage this by withdrawing its current nuclear shield from Europe." You make it sound like you think the world will be a safer place if more countries have nuclear weapons. How is the proliferation of nuclear weapons a good thing?

joe on :

If the trade off is between Germany becoming a nuclear power and the US ending its defensive shield for Europe versus the status quo, then I support Germany becoming a nuclear power. You make it sound as if Germany would not be a responsible nuclear power or that you do not trust them. If Germany is to accomplish one of its stated foreign policy goals, that becoming a permanent member of the UNSC, then it needs to join the nuclear club. All UNSC permanent members are also nuclear powers. As to the issue of nuclear proliferation, the only nation, which seems to be truly concerned about nuclear proliferation, is the US. This is especially true concerning Iran. Once Iran denotes its nuclear weapon in 4 years, in the next 10 years you will see 4 or more ME nations with this same capability. At which point, it will be a very dangerous world for those outside of the protection of the US.

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