Sunday, August 19. 2007
Killer of US Troops Released
Posted by Joerg Wolf in German Politics, Transatlantic Relations on Sunday, August 19. 2007
Eva Haule of the leftist terrorist group RAF was released on parole on Friday. The court ruled that she no longer presented a threat to society. She has, however, shown no remoarse and has not "shed light on the numerous assassinations carried out by her group, many of which remain unsolved," writes Spiegel International.
She was convicted of killing two Americans in a 1985 air base bombing. She was in prison since August 1986.
Should the killing of American soldiers be considered a crime - or pest control?
Just trying to look at it from the Deutsch perspective, Zyme. I obviously don't regard US soldiers as vermin - but many Germans appear to.....
Yeah we celebrate every dead soldier. Don't you think you are a little bit out of line with this comment?
"Yeah we celebrate every dead soldier."
Do you Volker? Surprising. I haven't observed that. I did not assert that. Don't you think you went a little out of line here?
"Don't you think you are a little bit out of line with this comment?"
Could be. But 'out of line' sometimes seems more the norm than the exception in these debates. Or did a few years ago.
Some people have long memories, and I am one of them. Are you?
"Do you Volker? Surprising. I haven't observed that. I did not assert that. Don't you think you went a little out of line here?"
You could come up with the old semantic angle but I believe we
both know that you obviously do assert that:
"Just trying to look at it from the Deutsch perspective, Zyme. I obviously don't regard US soldiers as vermin - but many Germans appear to....."
Granted there are many in Germany who don't like american policy, you can call it anti-americanism if you want and I think you are right in many cases. But to imply that we see americans or american soldiers as inferior or vermin as you put it is obcene and insulting.
"Could be. But 'out of line' sometimes seems more the norm than the exception in these debates. Or did a few years ago.
Some people have long memories, and I am one of them. Are you?"
Care to elaborate? Which one of those?
"Granted there are many in Germany who don't like american policy, you can call it anti-americanism if you want and I think you are right in many cases. But to imply that we see americans or american soldiers as inferior or vermin as you put it is obcene and insulting."
Volker, I have observed the German obsession with 'war crimes' and the absolutely over the top obsessional coverage of Abu Ghraib II in the German media (although not Abu Ghraib I).
Seems to me there is a strong 'vermin' component in those cases. Do you agree?
Very amusing...Yeah, pests, "vermin" - whatever. Here's an American who can't wait until all our American pests/vermin are gladly withdrawn from Germany and Nato, never to return.
Joerg's description is a bit misguiding.
1. It's not clear if Haule really is the killer of Spc. Edward Pimental. The Frankfurt court not determine that Haule actually fired the weapon in 1994. She was convicted in 1988 of membership of a terrorist organization, robbery, falsification of documents and weapons possession in connection with a failed 1984 attack on a NATO training school in Bavaria and sentenced to 15 years. But new pieces of evidence were used to prove her guilt and she has was then sentenced to life on three counts of murder and a charge of bringing about an explosion in 1994. Note that German law makes no different between a terrorist who really murdered another person or who was involved in planning and carrying out the murder, so this question wasn't relevant at all for her sentence on murder.
2. "She has, however, shown no remoarse"
Personally, I don't give a damn about signs of remorse, but to be accurate, in this case the court said its decision to release her on parole was influenced by the fact that "she actively participated in the self-dissolution of the RAF in 1998 and convincingly made clear that she no longer views violence in the form of armed fighting as an appropriate method to achieve political aims." Federal prosecutors called for her release on parole and prison authorities endorsed the plan, the court said. Judges held two hearings with Haule before the court made its decision. See the offical press release of the court ([url=http://tinyurl.com/37qax8]PDF[/url]).
3. Some self-declared "pro-American" bloggers make a lot of fuss of her release on parole, trying to link it manipulatory with the fact than an American solider was murdered. That's rather ridiculous because they conceal their American readers who typically aren't familiar with German law that her release was nothing exceptional. The naked truth is: Most convicts serve less than 20 years for life sentences because of parole after 15 years. Therefore, according to [url=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebenslange_Freiheitsstrafe]Wikipedia[/url], the average time for "lebenslänglich" in Germany is 17 to 20 years and in rather extreme cases 23 to 25 years. In Haule's case, the Frankfurt court had set 21 years as the minimum she could serve before being eligible for parole.
"she actively participated in the self-dissolution of the RAF in 1998"
How did she do this "actively" from prison?
"she no longer views violence..."
Okay, but has she written to the families of RAF victims? At least to those families hurt by her actions?
I know and appreciate that the German system is softer than the American one. And I know you have a point when you compare the punishment of "ordinary" murderers with those of terrorist murderers. Nobody is asking ordinary murderers to show remorse either.
In general, I don't get this judicial concept of parole, if convicts don't show remorse. Would not it be more honest to get rid of parole and just give shorter sentences?
"How did she do this "actively" from prison?"
I guess by taking an active part in the Kinkel-Initivative in the early 1990's. I have absolutely no insider knowledge so you should better ask someone from the Koordinierungsgruppe Terrorismusbekämpfung of the BKA or the Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz about her involvement ;-)
Note that these were not my words but quotes from the court's decision. My only point was that untill the Kinkel-Initiative 25 RAF terrorists were sentenced to life and today, only two of them are still in prison. So Haule's release on parole isn't an exceptional case at all.
And now for the idea of abolishing of parole. I'm no laywer but as I understand it, parole in the case of a life sentence is a necessary legal option because of a decision of the Bundesverfassungsgericht (the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesverfassungsgericht]Federal Constitutional Court of Germany[/url], very loosely speaking: the German Supreme Court) from 1977. See [url=http://www.servat.unibe.ch/law/dfr/bv045187.html]BVerfGE 45, 187[/url], "Lebenslange Freiheitsstrafe") for further legal details.
I'm curious how many pro-American bloggers mentioned this story because I read through most of the mostt popular conservative blogs and found zero mention of the story. In fact when I typed in "...Eva Haule released," took me to several pages of links back to Geir Mouson's AP release or the indescribably misleading CNN report. Mouson by the way did talk about the sentence and release as being typical for the German legal system. Not typical as in being weak, or anti-American but simply in line with sentencing and release guidelines.
The first blogs that discussed the issue unless they were Karl Rove's initiated false flag sites were so far left that maybe even the SWP or the IWW would refer to them as "splitters."
But considering America's lamentable history of accomodating our viral outbreak of well-educated and violent leftists, Tom Hayden, Bernardine Dohrne, Sara Jane Olsen et al., then Germany did nothing unusual.
Okay, now you're equating Tom Hayden's activism with RAF terrorism. What violent actions were committed by Tom Hayden? I have met Tom, and want to ask him about those.
Poor David, unless you are hearing voices then there was no slander(which considering that I did defend my original comment also hardly qualifies it as "drive-by"). Remember slander, in common law, is oral and libel is written!
That's simply your assumption. I was referring, in his case, to the circus known as the Chicago Seven Trial.
He was found not guilty of conspiracy and his conviction on another count was overturned by the US Court of Appeals. You accused him of "violent leftism" and I would like to know what violent actions he committed.
Maybe this is just another example of your drive-by slander - like when you accused Guenter Grass of anti-Semitism.
Hayden appears to have been convicted of crossing state lines with the intent to incite a riot and sentenced to five years in prison and fined $5,000. The conviction was later reversed on appeal.
Hayden was not directly convicted of a violent crime - but merely of inciting others to do so. And there was a riot.
If I incite soemone to commit murder (anbd they do so) am I not an accessory to murder at very least?
Hayden was not acquitted of the charge. The convistion was reversed by the courts - not the same as innocence. But also not established quilt. Rather it's a gray area.... So it seems to me what Pat wrote about Hayden was justified to a degree....
Anyone who has met Tom Hayden knows that he is not a "violent leftist" nor did he ever advocate violence. for 3 decades he has been working for change from within the Democratic Party. I guess in some eyes that qualifies as "leftist violence".
Joe Stalin came off as quite charming in person - or so we are told. So (for that matter) does Gee Dub, but I rather doubt you would give HIMN the benefit of the doubt you give Hayden, David.
Another pattern is violence early in life and renouncing violence later. Think Jocka Fischer or Martin McGuiness.
Could Hayden have followed a similar pattern? It seems likely - there was a lot of smoke around him in the late 60's. Unlikely he wasn't caught up in it.....
Well, I must have struck a nerve. And considering the litany of insults that David has usually deployed in "arguments" then tough.
So membership in the SS was open to a mensch?
So the years he spent with the SDS, as one of the writers of the Port Huron Statement and spokesman and organizer, his support of George Jackson and Huey Newton, his role as apologist and tour guide for the NVA and any other number of idiotic leftist causes are magically erased because he ran for the Assembly and State Senate of California as a Democrat. Wow, who knew absolution came by simply visting the office of registrar and registering as a Democrat.
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