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How Widespread is Anti-Americanism?

American political science professors take different approaches and assess the forms and strengths of Anti-Americanism(s) differently in two books (and in freely available essays adapted from the books). Professor Markovits sounds more alarmist than professors Keohane and Katzenstein.
US Fulbright Alumnus Andrei S. Markovits is a professor of comparative politics and German studies at the University of Michigan and writes about "Western Europe's America Problem:" 
Any trip to Europe confirms what surveys have been finding: The aversion to America is becoming greater, louder, more determined. It is unifying Western Europeans more than any other political emotion -- with the exception of a common hostility toward Israel. Indeed, the virulence in Western Europe's antipathy to Israel cannot be understood without the presence of anti-Americanism and hostility to the United States. Those two closely related resentments are now considered proper etiquette. They are present in polite company and acceptable in the discourse of the political classes. They constitute common fare not only among Western Europe's cultural and media elites, but also throughout society itself, from London to Athens and from Stockholm to Rome, even if European politicians visiting Washington or European professors at international conferences about anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism are adamant about denying or sugarcoating that reality.
There can be no doubt that many disastrous and irresponsible policies by members of the Bush administration, as well as their haughty demeanor and arrogant tone, have contributed massively to this unprecedented vocal animosity on the part of Europeans toward Americans and America. Indeed, they bear responsibility for having created a situation in which anti-Americanism has mutated into a sort of global antinomy, a mutually shared language of opposition to and resistance against the real and perceived ills of modernity that are now inextricably identified with America. I have been traveling back and forth with considerable frequency between the United States and Europe since 1960, and I cannot recall a time like the present, when such a vehement aversion to everything American has been articulated in Europe.
His full essay is available at The Chronicle of Higher Education (via: Transatlantic Forum) "Uncouth Nation: Why Europe Dislikes America" and is adapted from his new book More about this book, including some criticism in the Atlantic Review post Anti-Americanism and Anti-Semitism.
 
The new book by professors Katzenstein and Keohane seems to be less alarmist than Markovits:
The Atlantic Review already presented some quotes from an essay adapted from their new book: "Anti-Americanisms in World Politics"
In its book review, The Boston Globe (via: Dialog International) points out:
Too often commentators who have written on anti-Americanism make do with anecdotal evidence: The burning of an American flag, or a chilly electoral climate for politicians who are seen as kowtowing to United States interests, are taken as signs that anti-Americanism is on the rise. By contrast, most contributors to the Katzenstein and Keohane volume rely on quantitative evidence from large-scale social surveys. Two especially noteworthy findings emerge.
First, fewer people around the globe hate the United States than might be imagined.
As political scientist Giacomo Chiozza notes in a chapter analyzing data from a survey carried out in 44 countries in 2002, 43 percent of respondents worldwide said they had a "somewhat favorable" view of the United States, and 21 percent said they had a "very favorable" view. To be sure, anti-American sentiment is strong in some countries and regions. In the Middle East, for example, three quarters of respondents had negative views of the United States
overall. But in France and Germany, more than 60 percent of respondents had positive views of the United States.
What's more, even where anti-American sentiment is high, people often express appreciation for aspects of American society. While 70 percent of respondents in the Middle East held negative views of the United States war on terror, only about one-quarter said they did not admire the advances made by the United States i
n science and technology. Similarly, while 57 percent of Egyptians said they disliked American popular culture, a third said they appreciated American ways of doing business. Radical anti-Americanism, encompassing dislike of the United States on all fronts, is rare, and in general there is more dislike for American policies than for the American people.

A new BBC Survey about world opinions concerning US foreign policy shows that
"across all 25 countries polled, one citizen in two (49%) now says the US is playing a mainly negative role in the world." A negative opinion on US foreign policy does not necessarily indicate Anti-Americanism, because a) many Americans have negative opinions about their government's foreign policy as well and b) many people around the world still have a favorable view of the American people. (Katzenstein and Keohane make similar arguments.)

PEWTwo in three Germans still have a favorable view of Americans, see the graphic on the left. It should, however, be pointed out that some participants in any such poll probably answer in a politically correct way. The graphic is from a survey about the US image by the respected PEW Research Center. The survey contains many more interesting statistics.

Two tough questions:
How widespread is Anti-Americanism? How big is the problem?
What is more trustworthy: Personal anecdotes based on numerous trips to Europe or large-scale surveys? (I guess, both have their flaws. And yes, Markovits relies on surveys as well.)
How could Americans and Europeans reduce Anti-Americanism in Europe? Many in the blogosphere seem to think that reciprocity would help, i.e. countering Anti-Americanism with Anti-Germanism and Eurobashing or whatever you want to call it. I think that is a good method to create some awareness, but in the long run it just increases the transatlantic divide rather than reducing Anti-Americanism.

ENDNOTE: Germany Joys summarizes Markovits' essay, and the blog's readers make some interesting comments.

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Atlantic Review on : "Eurabia" and "German NeoNazis and the Taliban in Iraq"

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A few, but popular authors and journalists as well as many bloggers write a lot about "Eurabia." An extensive Wikipedia entry with many footnotes describes Eurabia as "a dystopian scenario where Europe merges with the Islamic world, and the

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Don S on :

"How could Americans and Europeans reduce Anti-Americanism in Europe? Many in the blogosphere seem to think that reciprocity would help, i.e. countering Anti-Americanism with Anti-Germanism and Eurobashing or whatever you want to call it. I think that is a good method to create some awareness, but in the long run it just increases the transatlantic divide rather than reducing Anti-Americanism." Some of us did try to increase mutual understanding back in ancient time (I.E. 2002-2003) only to discover that the German and French side of the fence were not jolly inclined to listen or to compromise - on anything. Then. This had an embittering effect - at least in my case. I suspect something very similar happened to bloggers like DMK and Non Parasan.... Perhaps this has changed or possibly the particupants have - I am not sure. But it's difficult to leave deeply-dyded bitterness behid. You should not expect too much..... Also look in the mirror. Not just your owbn mirror but the mirror of what your fellows and your press are dishing out -= and what makes it through the filters of American journalism. The abuse which returns on you is in large part a reflection of that - and of what was percieved to have occured in 2002-2006 as well.

JW-Atlantic Review on :

Thanks, Don. "Some of us did try to increase mutual understanding back in ancient time (I.E. 2002-2003) only to discover that the German and French side of the fence were not jolly inclined to listen or to compromise - on anything." Could you please be a bit more specific? What did you try and what was the specific reaction? What compromise did the French and Germans reject? "The abuse which returns on you is in large part a reflection of that - and of what was percieved to have occured in 2002-2006 as well." I understand and accept that, but I don't think returning the abuse will improve anything. Quite to the contrary...

David on :

Markovits sees Anti-Americanism as the flip-side of anti-Semitism: hatred of America equates to hatred of the Jews This is the great flaw in his his thinking. Markovits sees any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic, and any criticism of the Bush administration is hatred of America. The man is completely distorted in his thinking. He should team up with Alan Dershowitz.

Pinkerton on :

David Those are very good points. It seems to me that criticism of any country or people is often mistaken for bashing. In the case of Israel, I see this all the time. I've stayed out of most discussions on blogs regarding this issue because I've seen people try to make a valid criticism about Israeli policies, and then they are called an anti-Semite. I've had the misfortune to view a French blog that was supposedly formed to stop French bashing in America. I thought it was going to be something that would cement relations, but instead, often resorted to all out hateful remarks about Americans and the US. I couldn't see how this could possibly help, and in fact, I think it hurt the message gravely. Bashing back isn't the way to understanding, it's only a divide. There is a difference between criticizing a government policy and bashing an entire country or its people. At first, after reading that blog, I thought Americans were very much hated in Europe. Then, I've read this blog and see that there isn't hatred for Americans, but a dislike for its current governmental policies (many Americans have the same concerns about our current administration). I never cared for the "you're with us or against us" attitude. IMO, that is intolerant and ignorant. I have noticed, that while reading blogs from other European countries, that the Germans are much more adept at getting a message across without clouding it with stereotypes. It seems the German form of debate is much more measured and intelligent. I have yet to come across a hot-headed German...but I know there must be some out there! ;)

Fuchur on :

Thanks for pointing out again the great essay by Katzenstein and Keohane (I had missed it over the holidays). We already had a bit of a discussion about Markovits here, and I still am rather unimpressed. I found the K&K piece much more to the point. It is all too true that [i]Too often commentators who have written on anti-Americanism make do with anecdotal evidence[/i]. Iīve read several pieces claiming that anti-Americanism was always rampant and has not really increased recently. All had one thing in common: A total lack of reliable evidence. Usually a few nice stories from the Vietnam and Reagan era are presented - but why not look at some opinion polls from the time? Iīd really be interested to see how the US favorability ratings have changed over time. Does it matter whether the President is a Democrat or Republican? Are the ratings more or less constant? Are there peculiar peaks and drops? There are all kinds of interesting questions. Wouldnīt this be the most natural approach if one wanted to take a closer look at the history of anti-Americanism? But no: All we usually get is a bunch of anectdotes. I guess the reason is that all the pretty [i]grand explanations[/i] (as K&K call them) donīt hold water if you actually take a closer look at them. Itīs much more fun to indulge in beautiful and simple pop psychology explanations without being disturbed by those pesky facts.

Yank on :

I wish you Europeans would apply the same standard to us that you apply to the poor little Islamofascist terrorists and jihadis. They can get as mad as they want about anything, however slight and however thermonuclear their reaction. But America mustn't peeved at the constant insults from Europe. We must take the eternal tongue lashing from Europe and never hit back, eh? More important. Europeans are shameless of the way they are treating us. The kind of things Europeans say openly and publicly about Americans they wouldn't dare say about blacks, Muslims, or any other people. Their fellow Europeans wouldn't tolerate it. But their fellow Europeans love it when they talk that way about Americans. It's bigotry. And Europe is shameless of it. Show me any Europeans expressing any shame over what's going on there? How far do you have to go to find a person who isn't afraid to speak up and say it's wrong? Shamelessness is a dead end. Whether it's a person or nation, write the shameless off and move on. Europeans think THEIR behavior reflects badly on us, not them. That is twisted. And you can have no good relationship with people who think as backwardly as that. Europeans are not our friends or allies. We are their whipping boy. Relations are in the toilet, and that's where they belong. Why do you ASSUME that close ties between America and people who hate our country, our government, and everything about us from the way we pronounce words, to our liking for ketchup and American football, to defending ourselves from AFGHANISTAN after 9/11? It's best to stay away from people who hate you, apply vicious double standards to you, and spread national charcater assassination you about throughout the world. That has contributed to the anti-Americansm around the world and especially in ME. Friends and allies don't make the whole world hate you. How can Europeans be surprised that Americans are getting fed up with it and firing back? How naughty! Is that because Europeans are afraid to attack people who will fire back? I think it is. That's what President Bush was trying to tell you people when he said that 9/11 was a moment for you but a change in our way of thinking. Read his lips: "We ain't willing to put up with it anymore. It is now costing American lives." Eurotrash-talking of America has been going on nonstop since the end of WW2. When the Soviet Union fell and Europe no longer needed our protection, Europeans got louder and sassier and nastier than ever. The European Left must paint America as the greatest evil and threat in the world, which has made them go wild in their accusations to make America look even more evil and threatening than Europe's real enemy - the Islamofascist crusaders. That's how blind and reckless they are in their desperate effort to advance the cause of socialism, despite the abundant proof that it doesn't work. Europe has a pathological hatred and envy of America incited by its socialist ruling class. Even those who don't share it are bullied into silence by the herd mentality. You ASSUME that America NEEDS Europe. You ASSUME an awful lot of things, as matter of fact. Don't assume that we trust Europe at all anymore.

VinceTN on :

I feel much of the disrespect for America is the result of the Socialist religion. America can be scary or annoying to someone of a certain outlook but how does anyone hate a nation that has done as much for the world as America? There are many Leftists in America (some posting on this board) that can out perform any Euro for trashing the US. Its the Socialism. More dogmatic and unyielding than many religions. When the trauma of 9/11 finally dies down, Americans will be less sensitive to these insults and will return world opinion to its previous background noise status. Until then, it would seem to be an easy thing to ask the diplomatic and nuanced nations to put their claimed virtues to work when talking to America during our period of hurt. Is America worth the effort in their eyes? That's my question. I feel more betrayal than fury towards Europe. Yet, JW makes me feel better just by talking to us even when he doesn't agree with much or anything I believe.

Zyme on :

@ Yank There used to be a great antipathy against the Soviet Union, as it threatened our continent. This vanished after the russian area of influence imploded and Europe became reunited. Maybe there is a deep antipathy against America today as it is the only remaining superpower in competition with Europe (which has become ambitious again). Countries like China or Russia are seen as partners for raw materials or business markets for our products. America though has become our rival for influence.

Anonymous on :

"Countries like China or Russia are seen as partners for raw materials or business markets for our products." Have read the German, French, British or any other European press lately?

Don S on :

"Maybe there is a deep antipathy against America today as it is the only remaining superpower in competition with Europe (which has become ambitious again)." Zyme, (who obviously thinks for himself) has put his finger on . The antipathy Europe felt for the USSR is not closely akin to the antipathy being ginned up against the US now. The USSR was a direct military threat to Europe - the US is not. But Europe has become ambitious again. To be more accurate certain powerful European elites have become ambitious again. The US is a threat to their ambitions. They seek to lead the world and the current leader must be brought low in order to achieve these ambitions. Thus the propoganda offensive against the US. They are the US 'friends', but the US must know it's place - following rather than leading. Equality is not to be contemplated; the French (and German?) ego will not stand for it. Or rather the ego of this portion of the Euro-elite will not. So while it is not accurate to state that 'Europe' is anti-American it is not nearly so wrong to observe that Europe is being deliberately led in that direction. And to steal a metaphor from another post either here or over on German Joys; that is the 'elephant in the room' which nobody wants to recognize.

JW-Atlantic Review on :

"But Europe has become ambitious again." The US wants Europe to play a bigger role. Burden sharing etc. The US has supported EU integration for decades. The US wanted the EU to get into peacekeeping in Lebanon and Congo... "The US is a threat to their ambitions." Please specify. "They seek to lead the world and the current leader must be brought low in order to achieve these ambitions." Really? I think, the EU can't lead the world. Neither can the US. The US is the most powerful country in the world, but not the leader of the world. What makes you think that the US is currently leading the world? Where do you lead the world to? It seems that you want the world to follow the US lead. Why? Isn't that pretty arrogant? It seems your problem with EU ambitions is that European countries might not continue to follow the US. This leads to the question: Why is it good and normal that European countries (or any other country) follows the United States? Why is it bad that European countries (or any other countries) are less willing to follow? I think it is pretty normal, that countries do not want to follow other countries. After all, the US does not want to follow anybody, not even the EU or the UN. Thus, you have to get used to the fact that the EU is getting more ambitious. I hope the EU does not get too ambitious, because that causes more problems. And I hope that the EU and the US improve cooperation. Neither the US nor the EU can solve major problems by themselves. Thus both need each other. Transatlantic cooperation is more likely to produce mutually benefitial results, if the EU gets more realistic about its own power and if the US gives up the assumption of being the leader of the world and stops expecting others do blindly follow.

JW-Atlantic Review on :

@ Don "Thus the propoganda offensive against the US. They are the US 'friends', but the US must know it's place - following rather than leading. Equality is not to be contemplated; the French (and German?) ego will not stand for it. Or rather the ego of this portion of the Euro-elite will not." Okay, I agree to a large extent with your characterization of Euro-Elites, but I do think that the problem is mutual. I am sure you have noticed the same attitude in the US towards Europe. The US elites decided that a war with Iraq was necessary and expected Europe to follow the US lead into the war. Equality in decision-making is not to be contemplated. US leads, Europe follows. End of discussion. Ah, yeah, many American elites say that once Europe spends more on defense, then Europe gets to have an equal say in decision-making. Well, I don't agree with that logic; at least not in regard to the decision to invade Iraq. (Somewhat different regarding Afghanistan). Besides, IMHO not Europe's, but the US defense spending is unusual. Not a single European, South American, North American or SE Asian country spends as much on defense per GDP as the US: [url]https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html[/url]

Don S on :

"Ah, yeah, many American elites say that once Europe spends more on defense, then Europe gets to have an equal say in decision-making. Well, I don't agree with that logic; at least not in regard to the decision to invade Iraq. (Somewhat different regarding Afghanistan). Besides, IMHO not Europe's, but the US defense spending is unusual." Both US and European defense spending are outliers. The EU spends far too little and the US spends too much. When a power the size of Germany feels overstretched when called upon to maintain more than 10,000 troops outside the national borders - well that is ludicrous! When the same country maitains not much more than 3000 in a marginally dangerous situation and then calls on the US (with a 'stretch' level of more than 30X German levels to contribute more - that goes beyond ludicrous. Particularly when one considers that Germany is probably the best-prepared of the major continental European countries in this respect. Soain, Italy, France? No, Jorg. You bank on the fact that the US is there and will be there for when we are needed. Dangerous assumption, because support for the non-Brit part of NATO is leeching away in the US....

Pinkerton on :

Yank Wow. I don't know where to start... "More important. Europeans are shameless of the way they are treating us. The kind of things Europeans say openly and publicly about Americans they wouldn't dare say about blacks, Muslims, or any other people. Their fellow Europeans wouldn't tolerate it. But their fellow Europeans love it when they talk that way about Americans." What is it that you are referring to? How are they treating us? What public remarks are you referring to here, did I miss something, or are you just setting up a straw man? Who are these people, these Europeans you are talking about? "Europeans are not our friends or allies. We are their whipping boy." They aren't? Who are those French and German troops in Afghanistan fighting alongside our American troops? They aren't our allies? If the Europeans aren't our allies, why do we have military bases in their countries? "Relations are in the toilet, and that's where they belong. Why do you ASSUME that close ties between America and people who hate our country, our government, and everything about us from the way we pronounce words, to our liking for ketchup and American football, to defending ourselves from AFGHANISTAN after 9/11?" You say our relations belong in the toilet? What do you base that on? Are you saying we (Americans) should be isolationists? Regarding 9/11 and Afghanistan, many of the Europeans did come to our aid, without hesitation. Do you realize there are still French troops in Afghanistan? As far as ketchup and football, who cares? I don't particularly care for soccer and I hate French food, so? Don't you think that statement is a bit...over the top? "Europe has a pathological hatred and envy of America incited by its socialist ruling class. Even those who don't share it are bullied into silence by the herd mentality." What about the American right wing faction, those Evangelical followers of President Bush? You shouldn't talk about "herd mentality" and not see that it exist in the US, also. I'm saying this as an American who has lived her whole life in the US. What I've seen in the last 6 years is a pathological hatred for anything European coming from that "herd", which is now dwindling, thank goodness, that has followed Bush lockstep from the beginning. Don't you remember Rumsfeld and his remarks about "Old Europe". Are you telling me that didn't come from his pathological hatred for anyone who would not follow Bush's pathological need for power and glory? "You ASSUME that America NEEDS Europe. You ASSUME an awful lot of things, as matter of fact." Would you please explain to me how we would survive without Europe? Do you realize the amount of business we do with Europe? Should we stop buying their cars, technology? In turn, should they stop buying from us? How do we have a global economy, when you want to shut out a good portion of the globe? Your argument makes no sense, IMO. Or do you feel that those in the US who don't agree with you should not be considered Americans? You're either with us or against us? How's that working, Yank?

Pat Patterson on :

Even I have to admit how much fun it is to bash or rather twit those who disagree. But most of these melees are started in the comments, and most of those are off-topic or tangential to mostly unread links. Do I think that conversation has become coarsened? No! I doubt that much has changed in the 230+ years that America has been a viable and independent nation. Americans don't really want to be loved throughout the world but they generally would lke to get on the subway or go to a pub when in Europe and not be insulted or harangued. The German that is convinced that the US still murders Indians is no different than the Frenchman that is sure the US wants to make France a vassal state or the Mexican that is still convinced that Gen. Santa Ana was bribed and the US got the part of the New World with all the roads and aqueducts. As to those French and German troops in northern Afghanistan are they less or greater friends of the US vs. the Poles, Rumanians, British or Canadians who do have troops in the more volatile south?

David on :

"I doubt that much has changed in the 230+ years that America has been a viable and independent nation." The table in Joerg's post speaks for itself: America's standing has fallen considerably since GWBush was (s)elected. MUCH has changed....and not for the better.

Pat Patterson on :

I would think an awareness of the ebb and flow of hisory might put things in a better perpective. Is the US less poplular now than it was say after Belleau Wood in WWI or D-Day and saturation bombing during WWII? Drop in the bucket.

Yank on :

European anti-Americanism is older than the United States. The sentiment does seem to have been just as virulent before. And yes we did tune it out as nothing but constant background noise. Yet whether it actually was as bad or not doesn't matter. It can't be minimized or blown off as just more of the same old same old. There is a crucial difference now. Now Europe exports this trash talk via mass communication (and other influences) throughout the world and has been doing so for decades (right along with Soviet Politburo). The BBC, for example, does it not-so-subtly daily in 43 languages. France 24 jumps into the deafening international chatter now, with "France's (psychedelic) vision of the world." This propaganda especially and increasingly targets the ME. Jeez, we stupid yanks have no idea why Europe's socialists should want to badmouth us there. Harmless? No. Look at what the French lie about the Pallywood staged killing of Mohammed al-Dura caused. It was the big wind that fanned the spark touching off the intifada. Distrubeted FREE to news media throughout the world. Trash-talking propaganda is just a weasle's way of waging war, like Iran does, by proxy. Philippe Roget is one of the few Europeans who has admitted the fruit of this trash talk. He was finishing his book on French anti-Americanism (the very chapter on French hatred of the American city with its skyscrapers) in NYC and saw a plane hit the WTC. All the blaming of the victim afterwards prompted him to end the book saying that it's time Europeans stopped examining America's conscience and examined their own, admitting their contribution to the poisonous worldwide spread of anti-American hatred and bigotry that bore fruit in this crime against our humanity. I shall have to be careful not to say "Europe" when I mean "western Europe, especially France and Germany." Sorry, old habit. That's old Europe. The Eastern European countries aren't so fooled about socialism that they hate the US. Yet. But since they have no way of knowing that much of what they hear is either twisted or untrue, it's but a matter of time till the western European media and EU wheeling and dealing make them all anti-American too. Why presume that a turning away from Europe is "isolationism"? Are there no other countries in the world worth knowing? And the punch line is that we Americans are the ones who think the world ends at our boundaries. Europeans seem surprised at our reaction to the way they have treated us. And the punch line is that we Americans are the callous, unthinking ones who don't know how the world works. One of these days Europeans are actually going to have a legitimate criticism of us or hit one of our real flaws (instead of just projecting their own off onto us) or have some helpful advice. And guess what? We won't be listening anymore. Because Europe has thoroughly discredited itself. As for America's own anti-American socialists, I wish those Harpies would reverse-immigrate back to Europe. They'd fit right in and thus give the rest of us some peace.

JW-Atlantic Review on :

Please be more specific!!! "Harmless? No. Look at what the French lie about the Pallywood staged killing of Mohammed al-Dura caused." What kind of Anti-Americanism has this allegedly caused? "I shall have to be careful not to say "Europe" when I mean "western Europe, especially France and Germany." Sorry, old habit. That's old Europe. The Eastern European countries aren't so fooled about socialism that they hate the US." They like to be described as "Central Europe," because "Eastern Europe" sounds too Russian, I was told. The phrase "Central and Eastern Europe" is okay, but a generalization. "Eastern Europe" is not accepted by many folks. You are not making friends by describing Poland and the Czech Republic as "Eastern Europe." In fact US ratings declined in Central Europe: "Some of the sharpest drops in positive ratings over the last year came from four countries that have tended to be quite positive about the United States. Poland’s positive ratings dropped 24 points from 62 percent a year ago to 38 percent." [url]http://atlanticreview.org/archives/568-BBC-World-View-of-US-Role-Goes-From-Bad-to-Worse.html[/url]

Don S on :

"European anti-Americanism is older than the United States. The sentiment does seem to have been just as virulent before. And yes we did tune it out as nothing but constant background noise." That was mostly before WWI and almost completely before WWII. One crucial difference is the existance of NATO. Europe seems to be defining itself as a cohesive entity, which is good. Unfortunately the way they are defining themselves is as 'un-American'. That is everyting which is not crass, vulgar, moralistic, evil, etc. A load of ballocks. Highly effective ballocks, at least in Europe itself. We are seeing the fruits. People like Joerg cannot see what is happening. Or rather they see but cannot believe the evidence of their own eyes. The rationalise that NATO still exists but fail to understand that NATO has become a Pometkin village of a treaty. All facade and no substance left. It is astage set on the way to becoming a cardboard box. 'Europe' ie France, Germany, Belgium, Spain) are being propogandised into believing that the US is their enemy. The process is merely half-complete; but the end is perfectly obvious to those with the eyes to see, When NATO crumbles or becomes a comoplete shell we'll be back to the diplomatic situation (in many ways) of 1866. And that wasn't exactly friendly....

JW-Atlantic Review on :

"'Europe' ie France, Germany, Belgium, Spain) are being propogandised into believing that the US is their enemy." The US as our enemey? Got an example for such propagandizing?

Fuchur on :

At least itīs easy to come up with counter-examples. Iīd recommend e.g. any statement on America from Chancellor Merkel. But she doesnīt really count, eh, Don? I guess you were thinking of people who actually have to say something in Germany...

Don S on :

DMV's infamous Der Spiegel splash page?

Don S on :

Er, I meant DMK, not DMV. Sorry....

Fuchur on :

If you take a closer look at the "collected wrongdoings" of SPIEGEL at DMK, you'll have actually a very hard time finding anything that would qualify as protraying the US as "the enemy". I mean, just look at the 7 most prominently featured examples at the right: be honest - isnīt your first reaction something like "Thatīs it? These are the best examples for the vile anti-American Spiegel propaganda? Puh-leeeze...". As for the collage of Spiegel covers - I actually took a closer look at that one a while ago ([url]http://atlanticreview.org/archives/285-Why-is-Abu-Ghraib-a-cover-story-again,-but-not-Darfur.html[/url]). First of all, I strongly disagree that all of the featured covers are anti-American. IMO, most of them are perfectly ok - but I guess it would take to long to start a debate about each single one. A much more important point is that this collection is now quite outdated. And itīs bit a misleading, because the bulk of the covers stems from the wake of the Iraq war, when for a couple of weeks nearly every Spiegel cover (and probably the covers of any other magazines) was about Iraq and the US. So, clearly, you take a very special year, and from that try to create the impression that this was representative for Spiegel reporting in general. In reality, it's not: Here's the full list of SPIEGEL covers (loads rather slow...) [url]http://service.spiegel.de/digas/servlet/epaper?AN=TITELGALERIE&Q=SP&JG=2006[/url] And these are the covers critical of America from the last three(!) years (the Spiegel site seems to be down, so I canīt double check right now): cover about Abu Ghraib: 19/04 torture in general: "The dark world of torture" 36/04 cia renditions: 50/05(!) Abu Ghraib again: 8/06 Power and Lies - George W. Bush and the lost war in Iraq: 41/06 So thatīs 5 covers out of ca. 156 (and we still can argue whether reporting about Abu Graib is to be considered anti-American). I'm sorry, but: No. This does not make a good example for "propagandizing".

Fuchur on :

[i]'Europe' ie France, Germany, Belgium, Spain[/i] Thatīs like saying "the 'United States', i.e. Washington, Montana and Idaho". Thatīs one thing I notice again and again: The definition of "Europe" depends upon the point the commenter is trying to make: When there are problems in the French banlieux, then [i]Europe[/i] has a problem with immigrants. But when Italy supports the Iraq war, well, then weīre merely talking about [i]Italy[/i]. You can also frequently read that 'Europe' was against the Iraq war, conveniently ignoring that Britain, Italy, Spain, Poland, the Czech Republic, the Netherlands and many more actually supported the war.

Pinkerton on :

Fuchur I've always had a difficult time trying to explain to some on a French blog that they can't lump the US into one basket. Just as France is only a part of Europe, we have states which are very much different in their ideals from each other. While on that French blog they talk of how little Americans understand about Europe, I can say the same thing about how little they understand our government and separation of state and federal laws. I think there is always going to be a certain amount of distrust between countries and continents, that is just human nature. It's when this distrust takes on monstrance proportions and a large number of people who think like Yank feel that Europe is our enemy and not our ally, this is a time when we have to start worrying. I think that attitude in the US is starting to back down, thank goodness. The problem I'm finding is that those who want peace are being shouted down by the loud voices of those filled with hate for anything they don't understand.

Don S on :

No, in truth is's like writing 'The US (ie New York, California, Texas, and Rhode Island). Except for minor differences in language, culture, and geograpical proximity.

Pinkerton on :

Yank you said, "European anti-Americanism is older than the United States. " :-D How could Europe have hated America before it existed? I'm sorry...I have to read the rest of your comment. I'm sure I'll have more to discuss later.

Don S on :

":-D How could Europe have hated America before it existed? " Ummm. Are you under the impression that North America emerged from the waves on July 4th, 1776, Pinkerton? Ok that's a bit snarky of me - but the point is that 'America' is not a synonym for the 'US' - or even for the 13 colonies. Canadians will tell you that, some with considerable heat! QED 'Anti-Americanism' probably first emerged not too long after Columbus' voyages.....

Pinkerton on :

Don In this context: //European anti-Americanism is older than the United States. The sentiment does seem to have been just as virulent before. And yes we did tune it out as nothing but constant background noise. Yet whether it actually was as bad or not doesn't matter. It can't be minimized or blown off as just more of the same old same old.// It looked to me that Yank was speaking of the US and not all of North America. When someone speaks of "anti-Americanism" they are usually referring to the US. When Yank said, "And yes, we did tune it out as nothing but constant background noise", do you think he was speaking of "we" as Canadians or North Americans? Yes, it was a bit snarky, but that's ok...snarky is cool. ;-)

Don S on :

Some of the thkngs out of Europe during that era were astonishing. A French philosopher propounded a theory of American degeneracy without ever having set foot ib America. I doubt he made any distinction between Canada, the 13 colonies, Louisiana, or Mexico however. Even so I suspect some forms of anti-Americanism far predated the founding of the US. Irrational nonsense of course, but much of the current nonsense coming from ignorant Europeans seems little better.

Pinkerton on :

Don My comment that you used to make some stupid remark about "Soros-funded propaganda mill..." was made because of this statement by Yank, //As for America's own anti-American socialists, I wish those Harpies would reverse-immigrate back to Europe. They'd fit right in and thus give the rest of us some peace."// Now, if I'm not mistaken, that view is not held by the majority of Americans. If you say it is, then I can only assume that you are getting your information from the "Rush Limbaugh/Sean Hannity propaganda mill". I assume that is painting you with the correct brush...no?

Don S on :

Pinkerton, Yank expressed the wish that some people would voluntarily emigrate. Not quite the same as deportation. In fact not at all the same. I have had similar sentiments about certain individuals if not an entire class of people. Alex Baldwin for example; if he were to belatedly fulfill his promise to emigrate I would weep very little. But I have no wish to make that emigration mandatory.... About leftists generally or large groups of leftists (either mass emigration or deportation)? No. I hold the view that a healthy body politic requires people with a wide range of views - and not just a few of them. If I may paraphrase Voltaire - I may believe someone is being a braying jackass - but will defend his right to be a braying jackass - to the death.

Pinkerton on :

Ok, yank... you said, "One of these days Europeans are actually going to have a legitimate criticism of us or hit one of our real flaws (instead of just projecting their own off onto us) or have some helpful advice. And guess what? We won't be listening anymore. Because Europe has thoroughly discredited itself." Americans stopped listening to Europe and everyone else in the world when Bush became President. He's the decider, remember? As for America's own anti-American socialists, I wish those Harpies would reverse-immigrate back to Europe. They'd fit right in and thus give the rest of us some peace." Again, you are part of the American (a very low shrinking part, thank goodness) that wants to ship everyone out of the US that don't agree with you. Is this the America you want, Yank? Let's get rid of free speech, free thought... How's that sound? A little bit fascist, I think. This country was never based on "either you are with us or against us". If it was, we wouldn't be the country we are. When you speak of "Old Europe" I feel like I'm listening to Donald Rumsfeld...remember him? The guy that was fired because he mucked up the war so badly? Yank, I'm sure you are a nice guy, but you need to think long term. Where do you think this country would be without "Old Europe"? You need to look past your nose to see the big picture. If we all thought like you, there would be no big picture, and there wouldn't be a free America.

Don S on :

"Again, you are part of the American (a very low shrinking part, thank goodness) that wants to ship everyone out of the US that don't agree with you. Is this the America you want, Yank?" Pinkerton? Care to back that assertion up? Or is it just blag from a Soros-funded propoganda mill of some time. I've detected equal desire to ship people out based upon disagreement from both Yank and you (ie none). To the extent that it's a standard slur that much of the left loves to sling it's both nonsense and offensive. I'm a rightly who has no such desires - and resents being tarred with that particulaar brush!

ADMIN on :

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