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Arizona Shooting Victim Was a 9/11 Baby

Making a tragedy even more sad, the NY Times reports:

Christina Green was on the student council of her elementary school, so on Saturday her mother's friend thought she might enjoy seeing government in action: the local congresswoman meeting with constituents outside a supermarket near Christina's home.

"I allowed her to go, thinking it would be an innocent thing," said the girl's mother, Roxanna Green, 45.

It did not turn out that way. A gunman shot Representative Gabrielle Giffords, leaving her in critical condition, and his fusillade killed six people, including Christina, a 9-year-old who loved animals and volunteered at a children's charity.

She was born on Sept. 11, 2001, and she was proud of it, her mother said, because it lent a grace note of hope to that terrible day. "It was an emotional time for everyone in the family, but Christina's birth was a happy event and made the day bittersweet," her mother said in a telephone interview from their Tucson home.

Christina, who was born when the family was living in West Grove, Pa., was one of the 50 "Faces of Hope" representing children from 50 states who were born on Sept. 11. Their images were printed in a book, with some of the proceeds going to a Sept. 11 charity.

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David on :

What a terrible tragedy. No way should a lunatic be permitted to buy a semi-automatic handgun with an extended clip.

Pamela on :

Absolutely agree, David. And I'm a hard-ass about 2nd amendment rights. There is a disconnect somewhere between law enforcement and mental health care. The cops knew about this guy for years. Apparently they even told people who had been threatened by him that the mental health professionals where on it. After Virginia Tech, how the hell does this happen AGAIN?

Pamela on :

Sorry, I should have posted a link re: my assertions. http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-is-a-product-of-sheriff-dupniks-office/

Pat Patterson on :

It appears now, to echo Pam, that the one shouting loudest about inflammatory rhetoric simply ignored the behaviour and threats of Loughner for quite a while. http://tinyurl.com/4v9npu6

Pamela on :

Indeed. Patterico is filing an open records request to find out what Sheriff Dupnik knew, when he knew it and what he did about it. " I am filing an open records law request for the documents. Do I expect the Dupster to comply? Well, willful violation of the law can lead to damages, so . . . we’ll have to see." http://patterico.com/2011/01/10/while-were-raising-questions-i-have-a-few-about-sheriff-dupnik/

David on :

We should bear in mind that this was not a random shooting but rather a deliberate assassination attempt on a Democratic congresswoman. What was his motivation? This will become clearer as the facts emerge. But this didn't happen in a vacuum, and it would not surprise me if the toxic Tea Party rhetoric demonizing "The Government" was a factor in pushing him over the edge.

Kevin Sampson on :

You claim this was a ‘deliberate assassination attempt on a Democratic congresswoman’ then in the next sentence ask what was the shooters motivation. If you don’t know what his motive was, Dave, how do you know it was a deliberate assassination? Furthermore, if Loughner had targeted Gifford, why shoot Judge Roll who was, according to published accounts, a conservative Republican? Indeed, why shoot anyone other than Gifford, who survived? If this had really been a ‘deliberate assassination attempt’ Loughner would have emptied the gun into Gifford. Your entire premise is asinine.

Pamela on :

David, you're an idiot. That poor kid is mentally ill. The only responsibility for that is his own body chemistry. I don't know yet whose responsibility is was to get him the help he so desperately needed.

Joerg Wolf on :

I don't want to read words like "idiot" on this blog. I don't want to sound preachy and stuff, but I do think we all have to do our part in raising the quality of debate with folks whom we disagree. I do think the Rally to Restore Sanity had a point, and should not be seen in such a partisan fashion as many conservatives felt it like. Americans from left and right are so proud of their democracy and free speech etc and want to spread it globally (or at least consider the US a role model for the world) etc, but the quality level of debate has been deteriorating in recent years. I think we all agree on that, right? Whether the level of debate in Arizona (or in the US nationally) contributed to the paranoia of Loughner or not, is of course a different issue. I think Sarah Palin's map with the crosshair icons is a disgrace! She has that map still on her Facebook page and more than 19,000 folks like it. "This is just the first salvo in a fight to elect people across the nation who will bring common sense to Washington. Please go to sarahpac.com and join me in the fight." [url]http://www.facebook.com/notes/sarah-palin/dont-get-demoralized-get-organized-take-back-the-20/373854973434[/url] What mainstream politicians in Europe use such language and imaginary? Moreover, while Americans mourn the victims of the Arizona shooting, Iranians mourn the 77 victims of the plane crash. And a day later, Sec of State Clinton talks about how well the sanctions are working. She is right and of course I welcome the delay of the nuclear program, but the timing of the statement is quite unfortunate. That's not the way to make friends with the Iranian public. And without the Iranian public, the US will not succeed. BTW. I was rubbing my eyes, when I read your first comment: "Absolutely agree, David." I thought you guys would never agree on anything.

Joerg Wolf on :

BTW Stewart did not blame Sarah Palin etc for the Arizona shooting: [url]http://themoderatevoice.com/97767/jon-stewarts-humorless-abdication/[/url]

Joe Noory on :

I find it rather interesting that you find things that Jon Steward didn't do important. How about making a point about the party being reflexively blamed, Sarah Palin, who DIDN'T have anything to do with it either? Think about this for a second: within hours, people were blaming her for the actions of someone who shares the EXACT OPPOSITE of her views, attributing it to a "climate", or blogger-spin. By that standard, if you want to carry it out accurately to its' logical conclusion, David is by far more responsible for the shootings than Sarah Palin. So why not wait wait for him to address irrational accusations against him, and then sneer at him for "injecting himself in the debate", as the leftist hate-inciting brigade have? Else, by the standards of that same accusatory leftist subculture, if you don't otherwise address a "have you stopped beating your wife" question, have to hear that it proves guilt. Think for a second. HOW does the shooting of a congresswoman, within a couple of days, become entirely about the subject of an unrelated political movement, one targetted unceasingly by the party in power, and their megaphone stenographers in the media? It has the stench of a coordinated response carried out by political operators. I work in a building where there are two whole floors of people who do nothing but this all day. They are a front location for several hundred seemingly fake "grass roots" organizations, and they bill by the hour.

Kevin Sampson on :

Actually, it started deteriorating when George W. Bush was inaugurated, and a lot of the blame for that lies with Europe. Remember the Bush-Hitler picture hanging in the BBC office? Or Eric Frey’s Schwarzbuch USA? Or pretty much anything related to America printed by Der Speigel?

Kevin Sampson on :

Oh, yeah, took me awhile to dig up his name, but let's not forget Thierry Miessen.

Joerg Wolf on :

In the BBC? Nope. Source please. Hitler-Bush comparisons, awful as they are, at least don't call for violent attacks against your political opponent, the topic of this thread.

Kevin Sampson on :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY4umBmJHjg So who has actually called for "violent attacks against your political opponent"?

Pat Patterson on :

But when David referred to other commenters here as racists that doesn't ring the same kind of alarm calling someone an idiot does.

Pamela on :

Joerg, I'm sorry, I did not see your post objecting to the term 'idiot' before I posted my BlueBoy post. I will respond in more detail tomorrow.

Joe Noory on :

He was also a "9-11 truther", an atheist, a mind-addled long-term hash smoker, and used his mother's position on the board of supervisors to never be convicted of his many arrests. Sounds like a leftist to me. Thiery Meyssan and Michael Moore are certainly more "responsible" for his world view than Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh are, given that your very first instincts, like a "truther" was to try to finger your own domestic political opponents for the responsibility in any tragedy before observing a single substantive fact -such as you just have.

Pamela on :

More in the "David is an idiot Dept." Needless to say, instances of 'vitriolic speech' from the left have been archived. Here's one. The infamous BlueBoy post on Daily Kos My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me! ------------------------ Today, just a little while ago, I saw on Andrea Mitchell Reports (out of the one eye in can still see out of) that Giffords voted AGAINST Nancy Pelosi as our Minority Leader. Rhetorical question: I fought back from my condition and jumped with both feet to help Gabrielle Giffords for THIS shit?? Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords is dead to me now. ----------------------- http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2011/01/daily-kos-blogg.html There's lots more where that came from.

Joerg Wolf on :

And that makes it alright to respond in kind? Just FYI America's image in the world suffers yet again. Example: ‘Unworthy of a Democratic Nation’ (Die Thuringische Landeszeitung, Germany) | This hate-filled public discourse has run completely out of control and is unworthy of a democratic nation." [url]http://themoderatevoice.com/97668/americas-hate-filled-rhetoric-unworthy-of-a-democratic-nation-die-thuringische-landeszeitung-germany/[/url]

Kevin Sampson on :

Words cannot express how little of a s**t I give about our image in the world. The fact is our image overseas is always going to be bad simply because we can’t possibly emulate everybody in the world who thinks we ought to. When all the illegals in the US go home because they don’t want to be associated with us, I’ll care. Maybe if it gets bad enough, they’ll start refusing our foreign aid, ya think?

Pat Patterson on :

Only a European would consider the leftism and sarcasm of The Moderate Voice as anything even remotely resembling the middle of American politics. And still they get their panties in a twist when supposedly some conservatives are quick to point the pot and kettle fallacy of their newly found civility.

Pamela on :

This is part one of several. ------------- I find it awkward to reply to the various intervening posts individually, so I will post this as a ‘single’. Joerg, I find your sensitivity regarding the use of ‘idiot’ ….quaint. David has posted here calling anyone who disagrees with Obama ‘racist’ and has now just indicted an entire swath of people whom he disagrees with on political grounds as complicit in murder committed by a sad soul who is demonstrably mentally ill. Which belies your comment: I don't want to sound preachy and stuff, but I do think we all have to do our part in raising the quality of debate with folks whom we disagree. Your comment: I do think the Rally to Restore Sanity had a point, and should not be seen in such a partisan fashion as many conservatives felt it like. I remember those threads. There were 2. Here’s the first, anticipating the Restoring Sanity Rally, Sept 18, 2010, "Rally to Restore Sanity" and the "March to Keep Fear Alive" http://www.atlanticreview.org/archives/1416-Rally-to-Restore-Sanity-and-the-March-to-Keep-Fear-Alive.html#comments It didn’t get a lot of comments, but David was there in the very first comment. ------------------- There may well be extremists on the left, but they are invisible. The extremists on the right have their own TV network, their own political party, and their own much-adored, semi-literate leader from Alaska! ------------------------------- Invisible leftist extremists and a semi-literate leader. Ok, I’ll get back to that. Now , let’s go to the thread that actually covered the march. “Like America, Germany Needs More Sanity Less Hysteria, Nov 7 2010 http://www.atlanticreview.org/archives/1433-Like-America,-Germany-Needs-More-Sanity,-Less-Hysteria.html#comments It is worth reading every comment on this thread, not least David’s predictable accusation that all hysteria comes from the right. I would take issue with your characterization that conservatives saw the march in a partisan fashion. What people took issue with was the appearance of Yusef Islam. From one of my posts: ------------------ As for looking to Jon Steward as a fount of cultural wisdom, I would point out one of the entertainers who performed at his 'sanity' rally. One Yusuf Islam. Some of you may remember him as the soft-pop musician formally known as Cat Stevens. Until he converted to Islam. And endorsed Khomeini's fatwa to murder Salman Rushdie. Rushdie actually called Jon Stewart. “I spoke to Jon Stewart about Yusuf Islam's appearance. He said he was sorry it upset me, but really, it was plain that he was fine with it. Depressing.” ------------------ And frankly, Joerg, your butt got kicked by almost every commenter on the blog and it was not for partisan reasons. But I have to thank you for the comment that precipitated this post, because it reminded me. I shall no longer refer to David as an ‘idiot’. I like my characterization in that thread much better. Mentally unarmed.

Joerg Wolf on :

So the Arizona shooting does not encourage you to think about the benefits of civility in discourse? Moreover, I think I intervened often enough when David's language turned ugly. Why is it so damn popular to point to other people, whenever you are criticized of something you did? General, not just you. That's also bad level of debate. "It didn’t get a lot of comments," I am not blogging to get comments. This blog has 100x plus more readers than commenters.

Joe Noory on :

Are you suggesting that there is some magical land with "civil discourse" that meets your standards? Puh-leez.... I guess Germans manage to have a "civil discourse" by agreeing to never discuss anything of any substance that anyone might disagree on. If that's what you're looking for, then you might ask yourself why it is that Americans don't see any need to model our lives on those of people on the other side of an ocean -for the sake of their egos-. Any civility that you find in German society has it's origins squarely in the American reconstruction of the norms and laws in post-war civil society to begin with, so I would save the passive-aggressive "questions" for people to your east.

Pamela on :

So the Arizona shooting does not encourage you to think about the benefits of civility in discourse? No. Why should it? There's no causal relationship. ----------------------- Moreover, I think I intervened often enough when David's language turned ugly. Apologies. Must have missed it. --------------- Why is it so damn popular to point to other people, whenever you are criticized of something you did? General, not just you It isn't and I didn't. I responded not to criticism. I responded to a lie. Two lies, actually. That 'right wing hate speech' was in some way responsible for the Tuscon shooting. And that etremists on the left are invisible. ------------ "It didn’t get a lot of comments," I am not blogging to get comments. This blog has 100x plus more readers than commenters. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I intended to convey that perhaps not many people had seen David's comment. That's all.

Kevin Sampson on :

And speaking of civil discourse: http://www.foulmouthshirts.com/New-Shirts/SARAH-PALIN-IS-A-CUNT.htm

Pamela on :

Part 2 Now Joerg your comment: Americans from left and right are so proud of their democracy and free speech etc and want to spread it globally (or at least consider the US a role model for the world) etc, but the quality level of debate has been deteriorating in recent years. In recent years? Are you serious? Here’s a brief history lesson. “Before modern political times, the level of insult was far higher still. John Adams called Alexander Hamilton "the bastard brat of a Scotch peddler." In the early years of the republic, newspapers made no pretense at being even-handed. Many were funded by politicians and parties to unashamedly advance their interests. Even George Washington, twice unanimously elected to the presidency, found himself slandered in the press. The Philadelphia Aurora, the leading Jeffersonian paper, referred to him sarcastically as "Saint Washington," accused him of overdrawing his salary, and compared him to Nero and "a common pickpocket." By the end of his second term, Washington, like Johnson 160 years later, was desperately tired of being "buffeted in the public prints by a set of infamous scribblers." Thomas Jefferson in his term was regularly accused of fathering children by his slave Sarah Hemmings, often described in the papers as "dusky Sally." (Recent DNA evidence, in fact, gives considerable credence to the accusation. But in Jefferson's day, there was no evidence beyond gossip.) Andrew Jackson was regularly called "King Andrew" and accused of seeking to establish a monarchy. He blamed the death of his beloved wife, Rachel, shortly after he was elected, on scandalmongers in the press who had accused her of bigamy. He described her in her epitaph as, "A being so gentle and so virtuous, slander might wound but could not dishonor." And he never forgave the insult. Abraham Lincoln, in an 1863 political cartoon, was depicted as a monkey handing the Emancipation Proclamation to a minstrel-show stereotype of a black man. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576073831200284192.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop Your comment: I think Sarah Palin's map with the crosshair icons is a disgrace! She has that map still on her Facebook page and more than 19,000 folks like it. Sorry, but that jargon is common in American politics. So are maps with bulls eyes on them right along with accompanying ‘target’ jargon. Here’s the Democratic Leadership Committee’s ‘bullseye’ map, titled “targeting strategy’ Dec 2004 http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171 Here’s you again Joerg: What mainstream politicians in Europe use such language and imaginary? Oh, well, allow me to introduce you to The German Diplomat From Hell. June 2005 http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2005/06/the_german_dipl.html A few quotes: - The gulag was better than Gitmo, since at least the Stalinist system offered its victims a trial of sorts. - Nor was that all. Civil rights in the U.S., he said, were on a par with those of North Korea and rather behind what they had been in Europe in the Middle Ages. When I offered that, as a journalist, I had encountered no restrictions on press freedom, he cut me off. "That's because The Wall Street Journal takes its orders from the government." By then we had sat down at the formal dining table, with our backs to Ground Zero a half-mile away and our eyes on the boats on the river below us. My wife and I made abortive attempts at ordinary conversation. We were met with non sequiturs: "The only people who appreciate American foreign policy are poodles." After further bizarre pronouncements, including a lecture on the illegality of the Holocaust under Nazi law ---------------- And lest we forget, the loving treatment of George Bush’s America at the hands of German media Germany’s Stern Magazine on Martin Luther King Jr. Day: Condoleezza Rice the "Voice of her Master" http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2005/01/germanys_stern_.html Germany's Largest Trade Union: Portraying Americans as Blood Suckers "A Good Caricature" http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2005/05/germanys_larges.html Given the political relationships forged between the German gov’t and the unions I think it’s fair to characterize the union leadership as German politicians. Ok, Joerg, I’m done addressing your issues. For the time being.

Pamela on :

part 3 Now I shall consider David’s ADORABLE contentions that the extremist left is invisible, all hate comes from the right, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, blah blah blah. I don’t expect our European colleagues to be as familiar with what goes on here as we are, so allow me to point out a few things. The Service Employees International Union, commonly referred to as the SEIU. The union’s campaign contributions during the Obama campaign were about $85 million. Broke the bank. You can read about it here. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124243785248026055.html But they committed more than money. They committed actual physical violence. At a tea part rally in St. Louis, SEIU thugs physically assaulted a black tea party supporter. Kenneth Gladney, 38, a conservative activist from St. Louis, said he was attacked by some of those arrested as he handed out yellow flags with “Don’t tread on me” printed on them. He spoke to the Post-Dispatch from the emergency room at St. John’s Mercy Medical Center, where he said he was awaiting treatment for injuries to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face. Gladney, who is black, said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a racial slur against him before the attack. http://www.politicalbyline.com/2009/08/07/seiu-thugs-beat-black-conservative-activist/ I chose this link to provide because it has video and embedded links you can follow. Now, let’s go back to the beginning of what those of us on the hate-filled, racist right wingers saw when we were first getting to know Obama. That would be Jeremiah Wright, Obama’s pastor for 20 years. Wright performed the Obama’s wedding ceremony and baptized his children. Let’s see what he has to say. The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied. We started the AIDS virus. We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty. http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/jeremiah_wright.html Sen. Barack Obama's pastor says blacks should not sing "God Bless America" but "God damn America." The Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama's pastor for the last 20 years at the Trinity United Church of Christ on Chicago's south side, has a long history of what even Obama's campaign aides concede is "inflammatory rhetoric," including the assertion that the United States brought on the 9/11 attacks with its own "terrorism." In a campaign appearance earlier this month, Sen. Obama said, "I don't think my church is actually particularly controversial." He said Rev. Wright "is like an old uncle who says things I don't always agree with," telling a Jewish group that everyone has someone like that in their family. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/DemocraticDebate/story?id=4443788&page=1 Some family. And during the Bush years we were all treated to the good offices of the invisible left extremists. Oh, look here! Bush As Hitler, Swastika Mania Retrospective. http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=612 Go ahead and scroll down for pics. My personal fav? Oh, I just love all of ‘em. So cute. But let’s not talk about Bush. Let’s MoveOn. Here’s some love from the invisible left about America in general. http://www.zombietime.com/anti-july_4th_sf/ I DEFINITELY have a fav here. It’s the ‘Support Our Troops – Frag a General’ I mean how cool is THAT?! It’s direct and the violence is – well, it’s just a joke. Which is why I really have to admire people who really DO take action. Like that Code Pink woman who actually had the physical courage to get in Condi’s face during a congressional hearing and tried to smear her with fake blood and giving her the what-for. CODEPINK Activist Barred from Capitol After Calling Rice "War Criminal" http://www.democracynow.org/2007/11/2/codepink_activist_barred_from_capitol_after

ROA on :

Joerg, If you find Sarah palin’s targeting map disgusting, what about the DLC’s 2004 targeting map that used bull’s-eyes instead of the surveyor symbols her map used. Or the 2009 Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee map that targeted 23 Republicans with bulls-eyes? How disgusted were you when the Democratic maps were published? And how outraged were you over the following comments? President Obama "I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face," he said. He also said "I don't want to quell anger. People are right to be angry. I'm angry.” Then he recently said “We’re going to punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends” And it was candidate Obama who said “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun” Or John Kerry who said on the Bill Maher show: “I could have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania and killed the real bird with one stone.” Or Howard Dean "I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for..." and: "This is a struggle between good and evil and we're the good?" and “we need to remember that the enemy here is George Bush, not each other.” Or Senator Chuck Schumer who called a flight attendant a “bitch.” Or the Florida Democrats who ran an ad calling for the assassination of Donald Rumsfeld Or New York State Comptroller Alan Hevesi who called for Senator Schumer to “put a bullet between the president’s eyes?” Or Jonathan Chait who said "I hate President George W. Bush." Or singer Rickie Lee Jones who aid of President Bush "You're an ignorant, low-class, opportunistic man, both personally and politically, who does everything for political gain and nothing for the wellbeing of the people, and you should not be in office, and the kind of fascism you're perpetrating on our country we don't want, and you're out. We're done with you. Ffffhgggmm." And when asked if she would be willing to take Bush out for the benefit of democracy? "If I say that, I might get arrested when I go back. And I have to go home." She's thinking it out carefully. "I guess the question is, would I kill anyone? And the answer is, no. But would I feel sorry if someone killed him? No, I wouldn't. It would depend on who killed him, I guess." Or "The Late Late Show with Craig Kilborn" where they superimposed the words "Snipers Wanted" over an image of Bush delivering his acceptance speech at the Republican convention. Or Nobel Peace Prize winner Betty Williams who said she could kill President Bush? Or Randi Rhodes who joked about killing the President? Or Reverend Wright who called Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice, Condoskeeza [sic] Rice. Or England’s Charlie Brooker who wrote: “On November 2, the entire civilised world will be praying, praying Bush loses. And Sod's law dictates he'll probably win, thereby disproving the existence of God once and for all. The world will endure four more years of idiocy, arrogance and unwarranted bloodshed, with no benevolent deity to watch over and save us. John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr - where are you now that we need you?” You mention the Rally to Restore Sanity as an attempt to raise the level of debate. One of the participants was Yusuf Islam aka Cat Stevens who said he thought Salman Rushdie should die because of what he had written. Is that seriously what you meant about raising the level of debate? Killing people you disagree with.

Joerg Wolf on :

Looked up that DLC map from 2004. Awful. And Obama's "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun" is a disgrace as well. I had to google it as well. http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Obama_brings_a_gun_to_a_knife_fight.html It seems US politics is going down the drain with all this violent language. What happened to the civility, Americans are so proud of? Usually you guys consider us impolite...

Pamela on :

And finally. The attempt by the invisible extremists on the left to smear political opponents with the blood libel of complicity in murder serves NOT to raise the level of political discourse. It is the bald exploitation of the blood of the victims for political power. It is morally repugnant and, simply, evil. It's your blog. You can ban me. But I won't shut up. And I'm with Kevin: Words cannot express how little of a s**t I give about our image in the world

Joerg Wolf on :

I think you (Kevin and Pamela) do care what folks in other countries think of you. Isn't that one of the main reasons to read and comment so regularly here?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Pamela on :

Only to the extent that they have an opportunity to understand. Whether or not we are 'liked' has become immaterial to me personally because I've seen so much gratuitous anti-Americanism that's based on projection, myth or simply used as a political weapon. I've noted a few examples upthread. And Joerg, let's recap some American history in the hope you can be disabused that we ever 'prided' ourselves on 'civil discourse'. 1. I wouldn't expect you to know the details, but I trust you are aware we had a Civil War. 2. Ever hear of the Bonus Army War? From History Net site: As many as 20,000 former soldiers and their families had converged on Washington in the summer of 1932, the height of the Great Depression, to support Texas Congressman Wright Patman's bill to advance the bonus payment promised to World War I veterans. Congress had authorized the plan in 1924, intending to compensate the veterans for wages lost while serving in the military during the war. But payment was to be deferred until 1945. Just one year earlier, in 1931, Congress overrode a presidential veto on a bill to provide, as loans, half the amount due to the men. When the nation's economy worsened, the half-bonus loans were not enough, and the unemployed veterans now sought the balance in cash. Known as Bonus Marchers, they came in desperation from all across the nation, hopping freight trains, driving dilapidated jalopies or hitchhiking, intent on pressuring Congress to pass the legislation. The administration vehemently opposed the measure, believing it inflationary and impractical given the $2 billion annual budget deficit. [ ] Endeavoring to eliminate any doubt as to his motives, MacArthur next conducted an impromptu press conference — a job more appropriately left to civilian authorities. The conference allowed the general to expound on the claim that Reds had concocted the riot, the president's safety was at stake, and the government was threatened with insurrection. Describing the mob, MacArthur said: 'It was animated by the essence of revolution. They had come to the conclusion, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they were about to take over in some arbitrary way either the direct control of the government or else to control it by indirect methods. It is my opinion that had the president let it go on another week the institutions of our government would have been very severely threatened.' It was a masterful performance. In praising the president and war secretary, MacArthur nearly absolved himself of responsibility — perhaps a calculated move. Hoover watched the red glow of the bonfire at Anacostia Flats from a White House window http://www.historynet.com/the-bonus-army-war-in-washington.htm The MacArthur mentioned is Douglas "I Shall Return" MacArthur 3. Days of Rage ring a bell? Weatherunderground? They made a habit of blowing things up, in one case even a few of themselves in a 'work accident'. Killed a police officer in a botched armored car robbery. Or was it a bank robber? "Hey hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?" Black Panthers. Symboniese Liberation Army. Yeah, the '60s were FULL of civil discourse. Which reminds me. Did they ever catch the person(s) responsible for firebombing Sarah Palin's church?

Joe Noory on :

I've had to listen to this absurd concealment for 30 years... "Countries" don't care about anyone, the occasional individual does. What makes it especially absurd is that the entire notion of a "nation" loving you, or rather, the idea that they have of your nation, is pathetic and founded on the notion a minority or elite characterise their and your nation to be. It's feeble, European "league table" thinking about others. i.e.: - Short, dark, and dirty? Must be a central european... - Drive a big car? American. - Russian? You must be an alcoholic. Etc., etc., etc. From the continent that you can reliably use peoples' stereotypes in the treatment of individuals, i guess. Pathetic, two dimensional, and more frequently than anywhere else on earth: European. A population more willing than ever to objectify outsiders, and imagine them the sort of predicable cattle.

Kevin Sampson on :

What have I ever posted here that you believe has done anything to polish our image overseas?

ROA on :

If you are so concerned about raising the quality of debate with people we disagree with why didn’t you object when president Obama said “the unanimous vote of House Republicans vote against the stimulus bills set the tenor for the whole year ... That helped to create the tea-baggers and empowered that whole wing of the Republican Party to where it now controls the agenda for the Republicans.” That statement is fine with me. I rather like the thought of calling liberals c**ks*****s, but don’t claim I am lowering the quality of debate and inciting hate when I do. That is just BS. Why is Sarah Palin, a private citizen, more responsible for setting the tone of political discourse in the United States than the president? If you were aware of president Obama’s statements and made no objection at the time, you are a hypocrite for criticizing Sarah Palin. If you were not aware of them, doesn’t that support the claim made by conservatives that the media has a liberal bias?

Pamela on :

TEA BAGGERS?! Obama actually used that word? Seriously? Wow. (For European readers who may not be aware, it is a sexually perjorative term.)

ROA on :

Yes! From Jake Tapper President Obama: GOP Opposition to Stimulus 'Helped to Create the Tea-Baggers' May 04, 2010 9:07 AM Three days after he decried the lack of civility in American politics, President Obama is quoted in a new book about his presidency referring to the Tea Party movement using a derogatory term with sexual connotations. In Jonathan Alter’s “The Promise: President Obama, Year One,” President Obama is quoted in an November 30, 2009, interview saying that the unanimous vote of House Republicans vote against the stimulus bills “set the tenor for the whole year ... That helped to create the tea-baggers and empowered that whole wing of the Republican Party to where it now controls the agenda for the Republicans.” Tea Party activists loathe the term “tea baggers,” which has emerged in liberal media outlets and elsewhere as a method of mocking the activists and their concerns. On Saturday, the president delivered a commencement address at the University of Michigan where he said one way “to keep our democracy healthy is to maintain a basic level of civility in our public debate … But we can’t expect to solve our problems if all we do is tear each other down.” The book also describes many of the president’s top advisers cautioning him against trying to tackle health care reform in the first year because it might be too much to take on at the same time as the recession. “‘I begged the president not to do this,” White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel says. “They’ll give you a pass on this one,” Vice President Biden told the president. -jpt UPDATE: Some liberal bloggers, taking issue with this post, have noted that some Tea Partyers coined and originally embraced the term "tea-baggers." That seems true, and I didn't address the coinage of the term above. But it was fairly soon, by April 2009, when anchors on CNN and MSNBC were employing the term with mocking innuendo, as seen in the links above, and pretty quickly after that Tea Party activists began taking umbrage with it. It's now a common way for some on the left to mock Tea Partyers. http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/05/president-obama-gop-opposition-to-stimulus-helped-to-create-the-teabaggers.html

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