Monday, October 4. 2010
Posted by Joerg Wolf in Transatlantic Relations on Monday, October 4. 2010
The US, the UK, France and now Japan issued warnings of a Mumbai-styled terrorist plot against European cities. Every government warns its citizens of an increased chance of attacks. Everybody? No, a small country at the Baltic Sea appears immune to fear mongering and minds its own business. (Hm, I tried to paraphrase the introduction of the Asterix comics, but probably failed.)
German authorities seem to be much less concerned than Washington, London and Paris. I wonder why. Any theories? Are Germans ignorant ("nobody will attack our peaceloving country" because the Age of Aquarius has started) or are we the only non-fear mongers, who are skeptical of "the Al-Qaeda brew"? German analysts have not yet interrogated Sidiqi. Perhaps that explains the difference? Spiegel points out:
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David - #1 - 2010-10-04 20:11 -
This news may put an end to threats within Germany: "(CNN) -- Eight people thought to be German nationals were killed in a suspected drone strike in northwestern Pakistan, two Pakistani officials said Monday" In any case, I hope the threats are not true as my wife and I are heading to Germany this weekend.
Zyme - #1.1 - 2010-10-04 22:02 -
David relax, this is Germany and not Luxembourgh. Even if there is a terror strike, chances that you witness a tiny bit of it directly are so slim... rather pay attention to other participants in the traffic, those are far more likely to kill you :)
Joerg Wolf - #1.1.1 - 2010-10-04 23:28 -
Yep, and since traffic is far more dangerous than terrorism and you could quiet easily drown due to the torrential rainfalls in Germany, here is some advice: [url]http://lifehacker.com/5653156/how-to-escape-from-a-sinking-car[/url] ;-)
Pat Patterson - #18.104.22.168 - 2010-10-05 01:37 -
True about the reaction to car deaths but those are still quantified as 'accidents.' What would be the reaction, say here in California, after over 3,000 people were killed while stuck in the fog on the way to Bakersfield. Fatalism as a certain part of living is probably to be expected but the deliberate murder of one's fellow citizens is not. I cache most of the Lifehacker articles and some I even attempt often with unintended consequences.
Zyme - #22.214.171.124.1 - 2010-10-05 07:46 -
It just wouldn't make sense to me. Why attack nations who are leading a continent which is only half-heartedly fighting islamism in the world? Why wake a sleeping bear? Also this is not 2004 or 2005. These guys should know that public opinion is at a critical point on the continent and a harsh reaction to a strike would be most likely. But if they mean it, bring it on!
Kevin Sampson - #126.96.36.199.1.1 - 2010-10-05 18:00 -
Assuming your adversaries will act in a way that ‘makes sense’ to you is always a serious error. Especially when dealing with religious zealots who believe that ‘martyrdom’ is a guaranteed ticket to paradise. Perhaps they see this as an opportunity to cow Europe once and for all. It worked in Spain.
Joe Noory - #188.8.131.52.1.2 - 2010-10-05 23:31 -
To repeat the pathetic-Spaniard-ankle-grabbing effect. On a VERY simplistic level, they must believe that with every attack, the population will capitulate a little more, bifurcating from the governments.
Pamela - #184.108.40.206.1.3 - 2010-10-11 06:21 -
Zyme, I think I commented on this in an earlier thread. They - I THINK - would expect another Spain. I don't think that would happen, but I don't think your 'bring it on' would be the response either. You have no way to deploy your military outside the EU. As I recall, the military that was deployed to Iraq was airlifted by another country that escapes me at the moment. Germany/Europe has been infiltrated for far longer than the U.S. May I suggest a book? A Mosque in Munich: Nazis, the CIA and the Rise of the Muslim Brotherhood in the West. http://www.amazon.com/Mosque-Munich-Nazis-Muslim-Brotherhood/dp/0151014183/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1286770283&sr=1-1 It's excellent, and I say that from personal experience. Not because I've been to Germany (it's on my bucket list) but because I lived across the street from Dar Al Hijrah mosque during and after its construction and had numerous run-ins with them every Friday evening. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/26/AR2008022603267.html From personal experience - not just with the people from this mosque but with neighbors from Saudi Arabia - these guys are bullies, pure and simple. And every bully is essentially a coward. You will not be able to handle this successfully as a law enforcement matter. These people need to be killed. Would my own gov't get a clue.
Zyme - #220.127.116.11.1.3.1 - 2010-10-11 17:39 -
You are surely right when you say that right now European countries would not be able to lead a coordinated offense on other continents on their own. This is what I called the sleeping bear. I also do not think it would wake up quickly. But what would happen quickly in case of a row of terror strikes across Europe is that public opinion - which is already swinging towards the anti-muslim direction without any serious incident propelling this development - would then totally move to a direction where established parties would face the threat of new parties springing to life. Remember that in the line of Geert Wilders (who held a speech recently in Berlin in nearly perfect German!) a new Pan-European movement is already in the making. While it surely takes years to develop and manufacture military capacities for world-wide engagements, it takes only a few elections to create a suveillance state atmosphere which aims at muslims in general. So the first step would be that discrimination would set in and the equality before the law would go. And you and I know that these things are handled far more thoroughly in Europe than in the US, once things get going. I think the Americans are adversaries the islamists are more fortunate to have. In contrast to Europeans, no matter how serious a terror strike is, Americans will in most cases still recognize muslims as equal human beings and differentiate between good and bad guys. Imagine something like 9/11 would happen in France or Germany today - the consequences would be far more serious for the muslims living here. And ultimately, when a new interventionism sets in, over the course of say a decade, Europe would also be able and willing to retaliate abroad. Are the leading classes in those muslim countries sponsoring terrorism really so quick to forget how they have been treated by the French and the British in the past?
Marie Claude - #18.104.22.168.22.214.171.124 - 2010-10-12 04:15 -
"Are the leading classes in those muslim countries sponsoring terrorism really so quick to forget how they have been treated by the French and the British in the past?" Terrorim has nothing to do with our colonial past, otherwise why the US are targetted ? it's a movement that appeared independently in Saudi Arabia as "muslims brothers" first, a sort of return to the sources of islam like it happens in a religion life during centuries. This in't the first radical interpretation of Koran, hope it's the last, also exacerbated by Israel conflict with Palestinians Those that follow fondamentalism islam promote "Jihad" against the infidels. "How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War" http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2003/03middleeast_taspinar.aspx http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war Hilaire Belloc made a book at the end of 19th century on the inherent jihadism agenda of of islam.
Marie Claude - #126.96.36.199.188.8.131.52.1 - 2010-10-12 04:18 -
Kevin Sampson - #184.108.40.206.220.127.116.11.2 - 2010-10-12 14:52 -
The Muslim Brotherhood appeared in Egypt in 1928, not Saudi Arabia. They were supporters of the Nazis during WW2, so your claim that they had nothing to do with your colonial past is questionable.
Marie Claude - #18.104.22.168.22.214.171.124.2.1 - 2010-10-12 15:47 -
I rather read that that was the Mufti of Jerusalem
Marie Claude - #126.96.36.199.188.8.131.52.2.1.1 - 2010-10-12 16:15 -
I 'd heard that Muslim Brotherhood found a favorable ground in Saudi Arabia first, for in Egypt the movement is still forbidden from ruling the state. well, it wasn't born by french colonial rules, for in Maghreb, Muslims majoritarly practiced a moderated cult, like Malekism. AQ, the violent expression of Muslim Brotherhood, is of Saudi origin Though Muslim Brotherhood also financed FLN, and thus infiltrated Algeria society strates. It's from AQ that GIA borrowed the Jihad strategy, GSPC, and still AQIM today http://www.adl.org/terrorism/symbols/al_qaeda_maghreb.asp I still remember a egyptian group of workers that were sent as trainees into our cement enterprise Lafarge, in Paris aeras, they they were staying by my hubby's hostel. They promoted islam and were trying to endoctrinate me, though they were drinking beer at the bar. My hubby made them notice that there is alchool in beer, then they decided to drink tomatoe juices, again my hubby pointed on the alchool in there too (so that the juice doesnt turn bitter). Then their chief said that they were allowed since they weren't on the way to Mosquee...
Zyme - #184.108.40.206.220.127.116.11.18.104.22.168 - 2010-10-12 21:13 -
My point was not about the question whether current terrorism stems from the colonial past! It was about the fact that the French and British did not consider their colonial subjects to be equals. And they treated them accordingly. Americans as a strategy may prefer broad firepower which causes numerious casualties, but not the least because of their own history they do not treat muslims as barely above the status of slaves. Americans may exert strong influence on a number of states in the gulf region up to the point of entertaining puppet states. But they do not put themselves officially on top of the hierarchy and at least try to install free elections. Europeans by contrast do not have any serious drive when it comes to spreading democracy. As long as they seek to gain or maintain control, the means are secondary. Monarchs and dictators remain in power as long as they keep order upright and accept European supervision. When it becomes necessary, borders are redrawn and entire peoples moved. Now you could say that this attitude is one of the past. And surely current EU-3 governments are hard to imagine when it comes to conducting serious foreign policy. But the attitude of the people in Europe is still very similar I would say. Who would demonstrate against our governments should they enact harsh measurements in countries that attack our culture? People would rather approve either retaliation or guidance of dangerous barbarians. Already 20 years after reunification and without anything compareable to 9/11 encountered, German military engagements must stand only one test when debated in parliament: Are they in Germany's national interest? This is the case right now. It would certainly not go into a different direction, should we come under terrorist fire.
Marie Claude - #22.214.171.124.126.96.36.199.188.8.131.52.1 - 2010-10-13 01:52 -
"It was about the fact that the French and British did not consider their colonial subjects to be equals. And they treated them accordingly. " Algerians had the french citizenship, as Algeria was a french department but did von Trotta hold Namibians as equal as Germans at the same time ?
Marie Claude - #184.108.40.206.220.127.116.11.18.104.22.168.1.1 - 2010-10-13 03:00 -
the important thing that we ought to recall is that the nowadays jihadism is aiming at destabilizeing the WESTERN world in general, not particularly a county more than another because of its colonial past or not
Zyme - #22.214.171.124.126.96.36.199.188.8.131.52.1.2 - 2010-10-13 19:00 -
Oh dear by no means did I want to say that Germans were different in that regard. But my ancestors did not rule over lands in the muslim world. That was why I focused on the British and the French.
Marie Claude - #184.108.40.206.220.127.116.11.18.104.22.168.1.2.1 - 2010-10-13 21:31 -
"It was about the fact that the French and British did not consider their colonial subjects to be equals. And they treated them accordingly" !!! yet “That’s what we all experience in America and in other countries and also here, that this phenomenon of the homegrown terrorist increases rapidly,” said the intelligence official..." "There has been a deluge of statistics coming from Germany’s intelligence and police operations illustrating the growing concern of radicalized young people heading off to terrorist training camps — and then returning home to strike. " http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/13/world/europe/13germany.html?_r=1&src=twt&twt=nytimesglobal
Kevin Sampson - #22.214.171.124.126.96.36.199.188.8.131.52 - 2010-10-13 04:25 -
MB operated openly in Egypt until 1954, when it was banned. However, it has continued under a number of false fronts and today is one of the most important political parties in Egypt, just not under the MB brand. And it was France, under Napolean, which invaded Egypt in 1798, seizing it from the Mamluks. Your claim that al Qaeda is Saudi Arabian in origin is also questionable. True, Osama bin Laden is Saudi Arabian, but his second in command, Dr. Ayman al Zawahiri, is Egyptian. Zawahiri is also regarded by many as the brains of the operation, with ObL seen as merely a figurehead and money man.
Marie Claude - #184.108.40.206.220.127.116.11.18.104.22.168.1 - 2010-10-13 15:04 -
but the Brits stayed in Egypt
Marie Claude - #22.214.171.124.126.96.36.199.188.8.131.52.1.1 - 2010-10-13 15:05 -
Even before that, the Ottomans occupied Egypt
Marie Claude - #184.108.40.206.220.127.116.11.18.104.22.168.1.1.1 - 2010-10-13 15:10 -
Dr. Ayman al Zawahiri is paid by Bin Laden fondation. We didn't see Egyptians blowing themselve up, nor participating into terrorist acts, , even on their territory, it was rather Palestinians !
Joe Noory - #22.214.171.124.126.96.36.199.188.8.131.52.184.108.40.206 - 2010-10-15 19:21 -
except for self-detonators with names like Sheikh Issa al Masri, where "al Masri" means "the Egyptian". But of course you're so intelligent and sophisticated that you know that sort of thing - to the extent that you can assign people their psychological frameworks in such a fashion that indulges your vanity: I'm not the one with a colonial attitude, you are. That colonial prism, as much as you'd love it to be there to make your own cultural self-identification important, just isn't there.
Marie Claude - #220.127.116.11.18.104.22.168.22.214.171.124.126.96.36.199.1 - 2010-10-15 22:30 -
and that you're Mr prout prout, that's a certainty
Zyme - #188.8.131.52.1.3.2 - 2010-10-12 21:27 -
By the way did I mention what recent surveys in Germany revealed? http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,722521,00.html 44 % think that "since Sarrazin's book, Islam can be critisized more openly." 37 % think that "Germany would be better off without Islam." 35 % are worried that "Islam spreads too quickly in Germany." Also interesting is the point of view of the younger generation: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/kriminologisches-forschungsinstitut-legt-studie-vor-tuerken-bei-deutschen-jugendlichen-unbeliebt-1.1010867 While 40.9 % of Turkish teenagers consider German neigbours to be "very enjoyable" and further 16.3 % "enjoyable", only 9.3 % of German teenagers consider Turkish neighbours as "very enjoyable" and 38 % disliked to have Turkish neighbours. According to the surveys, "scientists" and other participants of public discussions who directly criticise Sarrazin and his book are threatened with murder and receive hundreds of hate mails.
Marie Claude - #1.2 - 2010-10-05 01:06 -
no worry, the german terrorists have already been killed Germany Downplays Terror Threat http://on.wsj.com/9VCSNK
Marie Claude - #2 - 2010-10-05 01:05 -
8 German Militants Killed In Pakistan Drone Strike, 5 European Airports Targeted For “Commando” Terror Attacks http://bit.ly/9arciC (wi/ video)
Joe Noory - #3 - 2010-10-07 13:23 -
Hamburg is on the Baltic sea?
Pamela - #4 - 2010-10-11 06:31 -
My 'reply' was menat for Zyme, not Joe. Sorry. Anyway, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS? ----------------- Belgium to Host “Future of Islam in Europe” Int’l Conference (AhlulBayt News Agency) - It has been organized by the World Assembly for Islamic Dissemination in cooperation with European Islamic Conference. The conference is expected to play an important role in making the European Union to take the needed measures to promote Muslims’ life in Europe. The three-day international program will also provide an opportunity for discussing Islamophobia and the future of Muslims in Europe. It aims to present a true picture of Islam, emphasize values common among Divine religions and investigate ways for realizing peaceful coexistence. Representatives from the European Union, Europe’s Islamic organizations, Organization of Islamic Conference, and Belgium’s ministries of Justice and the Interior will attend the conference. http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=208084 ---------- peaceful coexistance my ass
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