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Preventing History from Repeating Itself

Spiegel International:

German police on Monday closed a mosque that had been a meeting place for the 9/11 terror cell. They believe the mosque continued to promote jihad and may have been a staging site for Islamist extremists living in Germany who have traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan to participate in militant camps.

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Kevin Sampson on :

Really, Joe? You think those pictures of guys with underwear on their heads are more damaging than the one of the naked Vietnamese girl with the tatters of flesh hanging off her back and arms? Or the one of the Saigon chief of police (IIRC) shooting the suspected VC in the head? Honestly, Klein is such a hack. But as to your question; is the US now seen as a former colonial power just like France and Britain? By who? Anybody with the ideological bent does anyway, and did before we invaded Iraq. We are, after all, an 'economic hegemon', and any country which hosts a US military base is under 'military occupation'. So I really donít think itís going to matter to anyone, except breathless, over-wrought, fools like Joe Klein.

Kevin Sampson on :

Sorry, should have been in the 'Iraq War Enhances US Image as a Colonial Power' thread.

Pamela on :

Can someone familiar with German law explain to me exactly what laws are thought to have been broken? Also, is anyone familiar with the book "A Mosque in Munich" or the situation it recounts? I don't know how much credence to give it. From Amazon: In the wake of the news that the 9/11 hijackers had lived in Europe, journalist Ian Johnson wondered how such a radical group could sink roots into Western soil. Most accounts reached back twenty years, to U.S. support of Islamist fighters in Afghanistan. But Johnson dug deeper, to the start of the Cold War, uncovering the untold story of a group of ex-Soviet Muslims who had defected to Germany during World War II. There, they had been fashioned into a well-oiled anti-Soviet propaganda machine. As that war ended and the Cold War began, West German and U.S. intelligence agents vied for control of this influential group, and at the center of the covert tug of war was a quiet mosque in Munich radical Islam's first beachhead in the West. Culled from an array of sources, including newly declassified documents, A Mosque in Munich interweaves the stories of several key players: a Nazi scholar turned postwar spymaster; key Muslim leaders across the globe, including members of the Muslim Brotherhood; and naive CIA men eager to fight communism with a new weapon, Islam. A rare ground-level look at Cold War spying and a revelatory account of the West's first, disastrous encounter with radical Islam, A Mosque in Munich is as captivating as it is crucial to our understanding the mistakes we are still making in our relationship with Islamists today. http://www.amazon.com/Mosque-Munich-Nazis-Muslim-Brotherhood/dp/0151014183/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281480488&sr=1-1

Zyme on :

Pamela I am afraid it took me until now to properly acknowledge the first part of your comment - In most of these cases, those prosecuted are charged with having violated paragraph 129a StGB (Strafgesetzbuch), which outlaws the creation of terrorist organisations. As regards the book you described: I did know that Muslims were recruited in the East as troops in the SS, but I have no further knowledge of what became of them after the war ended.

Joe Noory on :

Boy, and to think that THAT only took 9 years. It must be one of those "einfach kompiziert" things that has to be debated for half a decade. In the mean time, get a load of [url=http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-wikileaks-hoax-part-i/]Spiegel[/url]'s stunning professionalism as propagandists, which can only be mistaken for journalism in a paranoid, totalitarian mindset.

Zyme on :

After the controversy on muslims wanting to build a mosque next to the former twin towers, here I have something for you people interested in muslim related debates on the other side of the pond: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1285815/Bundesbanks-Thilo-Sarrazin-Immigrants-making-Germany-dumber.html Enjoy it! One of the English commenters regretted that "To critisise this man for what he has said is PC gone barking mad, and the disease has obviously spread to Germany." By taking a second look at the page though I recognized a rather German disease which seems to have spread to England in return. The english version is called: "We are no longer accepting comments on this article."

Zyme on :

Ah I forgot something. David - didn't you write an article on Sarrazin sometime ago? I can't find it anymore. But surely you are interested in what the German public says to Sarrazin's thesis of muslims being Germany's peril due to lower intelligence spreading via higher birth-rate? It is not easy to find a poll, as the media seems to be afraid of the results. But Bild-online of course couldn't resist. Well, here you go: http://www.bild.de/BILD/politik/2010/08/24/thilo-sarrazin/neues-buch-deutschland-schafft-sich-ab.html At the bottom of the page, you will find some 113,000 users having taken part, 89 (!) percent of whom fully agree with his viewpoint.

David on :

Yes, I'm sure Sarrazin's position is popular just now, just as the position that Jews are "Untermenschen" was once quite popular. I agree with Stephen Kramer, the Secretary General of the "Zentralrat der Juden" that Serrazin should switch political parties: he belongs in the neo-Nazi NPD since his views are completely aligned with the NPD platform.

Zyme on :

But David, this can't be true can it? You said it yourself, his position is quite popular. But not all of them are NPD-voters. In fact, most are not. So why should he join this party? Isn't it the other way around? Shouldn't the established parties try to bridge the gap that has developed between them and the population?

David on :

No, the CDU/SPD/FDP must remain true to German Basic Law ("Grundgessetz") and not pander to populist reaction. Hats off to Angela Merkel for her principled stance: "Chancellor Angela Merkel is likewise unimpressed. Through her spokesman Steffen Seibert, she said on Wednesday that Sarrazin's offerings were "extremely injurious, defamatory and very polemical." She also called them "completely unhelpful" and said that "a different tone is necessary.""

Zyme on :

They have one choice to make - pander to populist reaction as you say, or give way to a movement that purely builds on it. In the past they have always chosen the former path. Do you really think it will be different this time? They are very greedy when it comes to their power, and the electorate will turn away should they not adapt. Are they the parties of the constitution, or the parties of the Germans?

David on :

So, a German Tea Party, Zyme?

Zyme on :

I know too little about the Tea Party Movement tbh. The "conservatives" here have disgruntled many people who would prefer a tough stance on these issues and are fed up with political correctness. Maybe they would have this in common with the Tea Party guys. But I assume the ideas here are considerably stronger, as people here expect minorities to assimilate in the long run. E.g. I read about the huge debate in one American central state whether or not the police should be allowed to stop people and ask them about their origin and stuff, this created quite an amusement here. This is common practice in Germany and nobody would question it. We simply are a few steps ahead ;) If the conservatives don't adapt quickly, somebody will fill that vacuum and appeal to those who want something to be done.

Pat Patterson on :

If you are referring to AZ then the only time people could be stopped by a government official and checked for legality was if they had been stopped for any other suspected crime, ie speeding, theft, etc. There is no state in the Union that allows people to be stopped solely to determine citizenship. But then Davd likes to brand anyone who disagrees with him as a racist so consider the source. But there are two groups that have argued that immigrants lower average inttelligence level in the US but one, Charles Murray argues that status changes rapidly if the child becomes educated and also has a good diet. While the other end are the followers of Peter Brimelow who charge that this gap is solely genetic and cannot change in general but only in specific cases. Most Tea Party people are barely aware of the two opposing views and unlike other groups are not that interested in the arguements either for or against affirmative action except when it comes to the government doing something positive in regards to the economy.

Zyme on :

Ah thank you for the details. As far as I read most scientists agree that between 50 and 80 % of intelligence are determined by inheritance from your parents - which still leaves some room for education. But of course not too much - so we shouldn't expect too much of the first few generations after farmers in anatolia. Diet seems to influence especially your daily intelligence performance, but again a good diet is educated by more intelligent parents on average. Let's face it - we are no experts on this. But the fact that it is being discussed now is decisive. Up until now, it was not appropriate here. That might change how. It can only become better this way, as taboos always hinder progress.

Pat Patterson on :

The US military found that as early as 1936 after their experiences with teens and young men at CCC camps that because of poor diets men were actually, like the North Koreans, smaller and worst less capable in the basic aptitutde tests the military used for recruits. They were in impetus for a free breakfast program for practically every child in the US and it was so successful that height, weight and aptitude had risen above levels before the Depression by 1944. They found that even a simple breakfast allowed children and teens to acquire a higher degree of litercacy and education then even before the Depression. I would then argue that in this particular case, with a large segment of the population, that a good diet, not neccessarily organic or perfect, was the quickest way to solve some of these problems. One thing lost in the uproar is that in the US immigration policy used to be frozen for twenty or so years allowing the last wave of immigrants to assimilate and not have a constant inflow of unassimilated into the community.

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