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Thursday, July 24. 2008Understanding Berlin, a pre- Obama speech guidePosted by Nanne Zwagerman in German Politics, Transatlantic Relations, US Foreign Policy on Thursday, July 24. 2008
Obama's high-profile speech tomorrow in Berlin is fostering all kinds of tragic misunderstandings.
On the size of the crowd, the Deutsche Welle reports that Berlin authorities are expecting up to a million people tomorrow, at the Siegessäule. This is probably the most absurd overestimation since Hillary Clinton's campaign played up expectations of turnout in the Puerto Rico primary. The most plausible explanation for the figure would be that Berlin's authorities hope to turn away people. Over 100,000 people at the speech will make good pictures for Obama, as long as the networks don't spend all day speculating about the size of the crowd. Due to the storm in a teacup about the location of the speech, history, too, has been twisted. Journalists generally tend to remember that Reagan and Kennedy also visited Berlin and gave speeches. And that there was something with the Brandenburg Gate. However, Kennedy's famous 'Ich bin ein Berliner' speech was in front of the Rathaus Schöneberg, about 5 kilometres away. Most reports brushed over that. Some are worse. After stating that Obama will hold his speech about a mile and a half away at the Siegessäule (1.8 kilometres, actually), the LA Times characterises Kennedy's speech as 'near the Brandenburg Gate'. The EU sponsored channel Euronews mixes it up completely. Bloomberg columnist Amity Shlaes even goes into a long rant on the symbolism of the Prussian victory column. The fact is, there are not that many central venues in Berlin where the authorities can organise this event successfully. The Brandenburg Gate is out of question because Merkel doesn't want it. Rathaus Schöneberg for similar reasons. And in front of the Reichstag is impossible because of the precious sprinkler system. There is some irony in this situation: it is the same goddess Victoria that stands on top of the Siegessäule who decorates the Brandenburg gate. She's even more warlike, riding a chariot with four horses. Also built by the Prussians. Like nations, symbols change. Trackbacks
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Zyme
- #1 - 2008-07-24 02:31 - (Reply)
The bloomberg link isn't working - Comments ()
Nanne
- #1.1 - 2008-07-24 03:12 - (Reply)
Thanks, the links should work now. Comments ()
John in Michigan, USA
- #1.2 - 2008-07-24 08:57 - (Reply)
"Oh and I forgot, he has a personal mission, too!" Comments ()
franchie
- #2 - 2008-07-24 02:57 - (Reply)
uh, I don't want him to visit Carla, just because he'd like a pic with her :lol: Comments ()
David
- #3 - 2008-07-24 03:14 - (Reply)
Talk about an powerful endorsement! German chancellor Angela Merkel has taken measure of the candidates and rendered her opinion: Comments ()
Pat Patterson
- #3.1 - 2008-07-24 05:33 - (Reply)
If that is true, then the measuring of the physical, mental and political ability should be in regards Chancellor Merkel for saying such a stupid thing in public. Comments ()
Detlef
- #3.1.1 - 2008-07-24 20:11 - (Reply)
Well, what was she supposed to say? Comments ()
Pat Patterson
- #3.1.1.1 - 2008-07-24 20:58 - (Reply)
How about simply saying, "We welcome Sen. Obama to Germany and as you know it is inappropriate for the head of any state to interject themselves into the internal politics of one of its allies by even appearing to endorse one candidate of the other." And if Sen. McCain visited I would hope she would keep her comments to the above. Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #3.2 - 2008-07-24 14:18 - (Reply)
WHat next, David? Looking for his image in a tortilla? I think you're missing something extremely important here: he's running for US president. Comments ()
Bill
- #4 - 2008-07-24 15:22 - (Reply)
I'm not going to get into all of the rants and insults to people's sensitivites going on here, but here's a tip for the author Nanne: Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #4.1 - 2008-07-24 15:39 - (Reply)
A foreign entity engaging in partisan promotion is "positive irrigardless (sic)"? Are you sure? Comments ()
Detlef
- #4.1.1 - 2008-07-24 20:23 - (Reply)
As far as I know no German authority has forbidden John McCain to visit Germany too? Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #4.1.1.1 - 2008-07-24 22:42 - (Reply)
Howard was plying open a rift between the US and the party in power in the UK. Foe the Bush White House to snub limit the interference of a fellow conservative when there was serious work to do with Blair is precisely the opposite of the venality you're trying to characterize it with. Comments ()
Bill
- #4.1.2 - 2008-07-25 12:52 - (Reply)
I'm no foreign entity! I'm from St. Louis, Missouri... oh, you mean the Germans. If I am not mistaken, people have been messing about in one another's political matters since the birth of what we call civilization. Good thing or not, it's the way things work on Planet Earth. Comments ()
Bill
- #4.1.3 - 2008-07-25 13:23 - (Reply)
Sorry about the misspelling of the word 'irregardless'. It was a typo. Comments ()
Kevin Sampson
- #4.2 - 2008-07-25 00:13 - (Reply)
"There is quite a bit of excitement everywhere in Germany today and the media coverage is absolutely massive. This is good for America, all Americans, irregardless of one's political persuasion." Comments ()
Bill
- #4.2.1 - 2008-07-25 13:59 - (Reply)
Well for starters Kevin, this speech by Obama drew the largest crowd for a visit by a US political figure that I have ever witnessed in Germany (or Europe for that matter). I am talking about a time period spanning more than two decades and covering a number of US administrations. Comments ()
Nanne
- #4.3 - 2008-07-25 00:41 - (Reply)
The German police estimates about 200,000. Which is an amazing amount already. I was just saying in advance that a million is not going to happen in a city of three and a half million. Those are the numbers of the love parade at its prime, when people from all over Germany, Western and Eastern Europe drove to party in Berlin. Comments ()
Fuchur
- #5 - 2008-07-24 16:56 - (Reply)
Judging from Joe Noory's ever more desperate rants, the ongoing success of Obama's road trip around the world seems to push the anti-Obama crowd to the brink of nervous breakdown... Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #5.1 - 2008-07-25 14:25 - (Reply)
Typically European: the existence of a dissenting opinion becomes intolerable... Ergo, you call any other form of opinion a "rant"? Spare me the fake ebullience about Obama's speech, and stop looking at it in artificially uncritical terms for a moment. Comments ()
Reid of America
- #6 - 2008-07-24 20:53 - (Reply)
From all the media hype it seems this is the biggest event at the Siegessäule since Hitler. What it is about radical charismatic leaders and the Siegessäule? Comments ()
gio
- #6.1 - 2008-07-24 21:32 - (Reply)
which event at the siegessäule in connection with hitler are you referring to, reid? Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #6.1.1 - 2008-07-24 22:54 - (Reply)
[url=http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/obamas-new-berlin-venue-another-bad-choice/]This[/url], perhaps. Which is patently obvious. It's also an interpretaton of the obelisk-form without straying from the [uel=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces]fasci[/url] theme originated from ancient Rome much like the Scythian bundle. Comments ()
influx
- #6.1.1.1 - 2008-07-24 23:03 - (Reply)
Good luck finding any site in Berlin that is not somehow historically connected with the Nazis. However, I don't think that many Berliners (or anyone else, for that matter) would drive by the Siegessaeule thinking about its connection to Hitler. If anything, they would think of the love parade or the fan mile. Comments ()
Reid of America
- #6.1.1.1.1 - 2008-07-24 23:15 - (Reply)
influx says "I don't think that many Berliners (or anyone else, for that matter) would drive by the Siegessaeule thinking about its connection to Hitler." Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #6.1.1.1.2 - 2008-07-25 01:17 - (Reply)
Not hard at all. There's the Soviet war memorial, Museeninsel, the Gedaenknislkirche, what's left of the Palast Der Republik, the Waldbuhner grounds, the ICC, or the Stasi HQ if you're feeling kinky. Comments ()
influx
- #6.1.1.1.2.1 - 2008-07-25 15:57 - (Reply)
Let's see: the Soviet War Memorial in Tiergarten is right next to the Brandenburg Gate, so that wouldn't work. The Soviet War Memorial in Treptow is too far away from the city center. Either way, a US presidential candidate speaking in front of a memorial dedicated to dead Soviet soldiers? Great idea, Joe. I'm sure the Republicans wouldn't have made anything out of that. The Gedaechtniskirche or the Museumsinsel? Not enough space for 200.000 people. Same with the Waldbuehne. Last time I checked, the ICC was a building, not an open public space. And the Palast der Republik, well, [url=http://flickr.com/photos/zug55/2697312377/]see[/url] for yourself. Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #6.1.1.1.2.1.1 - 2008-07-25 16:31 - (Reply)
That's why I said "what's left" of the Palast Der Republik. I won't miss the regime, just the Brunswick bowling alley in the basement. As for image, I think Obama would have that [url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4392846.ece]stitched up[/url], even if Rammstein was warming up for him: Comments ()
Reid of America
- #6.1.2 - 2008-07-24 23:09 - (Reply)
I believe that "event" was the wrong word. I don't have a problem with Obama speaking at a German monument to war victories that Hitler moved to it's present location. I believe the media should treat the Obama visit to the controversial site just like they treated Reagan at Bitburg. But we all know completely different standards will be applied to Obama. Comments ()
influx
- #6.1.2.1 - 2008-07-24 23:16 - (Reply)
So the victory column and a cemetery with Waffen-SS graves are the same thing to you? Comments ()
Nanne
- #6.2 - 2008-07-25 00:32 - (Reply)
We definitely need a corollary for Godwin's law in discussions involving either a: Europe-America relations, b: Germany, or c: Berlin. This could be an extention of the Sincar/Case corollary. Comments ()
influx
- #7 - 2008-07-24 22:58 - (Reply)
Really clutching for straws now, aren't we? The G8 protests hardly qualify as anti-American rallies. The G8 includes seven other countries, in case you forgot. The motherjones link doesn't even mention Clinton. Again, the Pew report from 1999/2000 says that 78% of Germans had a favorable view of the US. Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #7.1 - 2008-07-25 00:56 - (Reply)
It certainly isn't consistent with my own 5 years in Berlin. Pew, by the way, plays quite a bit of statistical toncil-hockey for sponsered causes like Soros' "Open Democracy", the Tides Foundation and the BBC. Comments ()
Pat Patterson
- #7.1.1 - 2008-07-25 01:04 - (Reply)
Or if they are dancing in front of a mirror to the song Goodbye Horses. Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #7.2 - 2008-07-25 01:22 - (Reply)
Clutching at straws? Comments ()
Fuchur
- #7.2.1 - 2008-07-25 13:29 - (Reply)
[i]Both your selected positive and this evidense of a negative can't concurrently be true without the majority of respondents either being two-faced or wildly misinterpreted. [/i] Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #7.2.1.1 - 2008-07-25 15:03 - (Reply)
It's what always goes in Germany: young people (and now old based on longstanding habits) getting out and getting worked up about something happening elsewhere in the world that Europe wil do nothing about (ever,) and thinking that the march/ lovefest/ riot is in fact "doing something" about said fixation. It's usually bound up with the kind of simple logic that will fit on an A3 size poster: hunger, war, something bad going on in the world that their favortie methods can't do anything about, and it shows itself either through impotent rage or overwhelming emotional support that results in nothing positive happening to any meaningful degree. Comments ()
Fuchur
- #7.2.1.1.1 - 2008-07-25 18:32 - (Reply)
[i]What one poll said over another in an age where these studies are customized to provide results, is nearly irrelevant. [/i] Comments ()
Joe Noory
- #7.2.1.1.1.1 - 2008-07-25 19:06 - (Reply)
Soros did not likely docter the study, but commissioned it with someone having some clear choices being made about the places it was taken and the screwy sample sizes - i.e. an overwhelming number of Uni students in Sydney, etc. Comments ()
Thinking Voter
- #8 - 2008-07-25 02:01 - (Reply)
For some reason, everyone neglects to mention that Obama spoke at a Free Concert. Comments ()
Nanne
- #8.1 - 2008-07-25 02:04 - (Reply)
My 'on the ground' experience tells me there were perhaps 1,000 people around the Siegessäule actually watching the concert, with all the rest checking if they had a good view of the mic where Obama was going to speak. Comments ()
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