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Top Obama Aide: No Free Ride for Europe

The Daily Telegraph interviewed Former Assistant Secretary of State Susan Rice ahead of Obama's world tour:

Europe will be challenged by a President Barack Obama to contribute more to global security and will no longer have the "easy out" of pandering to anti-Bush sentiment, according to a top adviser to the Democratic candidate.

Many German pundits have said the same many times before, but the wider public is still in love with Obama.

So many people over here are thrilled that Obama is coming to Berlin. Many of my friends tell me that they will try to attend his speech at the Siegessäule (Victory Column), where the Techno "Love Parade" used to culminate. It is quite close to the Brandenburg Gate.

I am pretty sure that Europe's current love for Obama will be over within half a year of his presidency, should he be elected. More realism will prevail. And that is okay.

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Joe Noory on :

These people get to chide each other over various serious-seeming business, some kind of show of statecraft by and for the interest of an inexperienced candidate... how cute.

Don S on :

Much is made of the new '*style*. It's not quite 'old wine, new bottles'. But it's close. Europe used the 2000's to teach us Yanks that they would not follow the US lead in the Atlantic Alliance - I suspect it's going to be the US' turn in the 2010's. Europe is going to have to work out SOME kind of positive agenda which they can do to preserve the alliance. If they stiff McCain/Obama I don't think anything too apoplyptic will occur in the short term. But the President after Obama or McCain? That is who will make the changes. And if you stiff the next president badly enough the next person could be elected as soon as 2012. Think Jimmy Carter - and Ronald Reagan.....

SC on :

Don: Clinton redux with respect to foreign policy in an Obama administration? With respect to Europe, probably; Asia, not so sure, but possibly too since it would not be unreasonable to find his administration stocked with old Clinton hands or those trained by them. Does anyone here really expect either an Obama or McCain administration to press - really press - for much from NATO, the EU or others? If not then how will anyone be seen to be "stiffing" either administration in return? Obama's luster is sure be rubbed off eventually, Joerg. But it may last longer in Europe than you think; in particular, if he and Democrat party are seen to undertake an activist domestic agenda to correct all the "well-known" ills of American society while at the same time undertaking an international agenda that is in accord with European enthusiasms. Both, would seem a good bet for at least the first two years; Afghanistan being the principal outlier. You may also be discounting too steeply the whole narrative of the exotic should Obama be elected.

Don S on :

SC, there is going to be a LOT of Clintonism in Obama's European FP. Lot's of smiling, photo ops, etc. I agree with you about Asia & Africa - not as much Clintonism there. But the point I was making about 'old wine, new bottles' was that the actual policy underlying the *style* tends to remain similar to the previous administration - at least until something truly new happens (like 9/11) and upsets the applcart of course. Bush has been pushing Europe for involvement in Iraq and more commitment to Afghanistan - I think Obama will do something very similar under the friendly facade. And then Europe (read that as Germany, France, Spain, etc) will have a choice. They can stiff Obama the way they did Bush, running a strong chance of alienating the entire US political establishment and electroate - instead of just half of it as at the present time. Or they can actually put something into the alliance for a change. If Obama is elected Europe should read it as last call at the NATO saloon - put up or walk away. That is one reason (not the only reason) why I'm going to vote for him this November.

franchie on :

what I wrote on the same subject elsewhere : “That Europeans adore Obama is just one more reason to vote against him. Maybe Katie will do some man-in-the street interviews where Franz and Pierre can tell us all we better vote for Barack because they think he’s a super cool dude. Of course he’d never get elected to high office in their countries if he’d been unfortunate enough to be born over there instead of in the good ole USA. Pretty much only pasty pale faces over there when it comes to electing Prime Ministers and Presidents. But I’m sure it’s not a racist thing. There’s just probably no Turkish-German or Moroccan-French or Pakistani-Brit citizen that’s, you know, qualified.” if your talking of “Pierre”, then I can tell you that he doesn’t care who’ll get in your office, for the main raison that “he” always makes his “independant policy”, that often goes against the anglo-saxon interests : business is business, question of surviving. A McCain, or an Obama, won’t change anything for us, just the rethoric in the medias, while Bush was/is “aggressive”, Pierre expects that the “political correctness” will be again “à l’ordre du jour”."

John in Michigan, USA on :

Well said.

David on :

Iraqi Prime Minister al-Maliki just told Der Spiegel that he supports Barack Obama's plan for withdrawing US troops from his country. Apparently John McSame's 100-year occupation plan doesn't sit too well with our friends in Baghdad...

Joe Noory on :

If the only driving feature of you posts and comments are about domestic politics, why post them here?

David on :

Because it's a huge story in the US that broke through the German media. Major scoop for Der Spiegel. It will be on the front page of every newspaper in Europe and the US tomorrow. BTW, all of my guest posts have dealt with Germany, not the US. But I'll try to please you in the future, Joe.

Pat Patterson on :

It is indeed a major scoop in that it turns out PM Maliki didn't say what Der Spiegel claimed he said. In fact they were very misleading in implying that they used the audio of his comments when the actual scoop is based on a written translation released by Maliki's office. Which included the word withdrawal when the reference was towards the status and number of troops and where they will be stationed. He was referring to the difficulties of negotiating the Status of Forces Agreement in the midst of upcoming parliamentary elections in Iraq and presidential and congressional elections in the US. In other words just another tease that leaves Sen. Obama's supporters in a state of unfulfillment. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7504571.stm And like most scoops from Der Spiegel it is probably wise to wait until one of the other more adult papers, the ones with fact checkers, reports on the non-issue.

Joe Noory on :

David - You've fallen in with the mythmaking about anyone WANTING the US to be there for 100 years, and frankly, you're fishing. Maliki is going to try to make his position as good as possible with both candidates, and try his hardest with Obama for one simple reason: couched as it is in circumloquation, Obama still repeats the mantra that he wants to abandon the Iraqis while they're still in a position of creating a stability of their own. Abandon them, he repeats in softer sounding terms even now, even though the players in the insurgencies are being knocked off their block one by one and the Iranian influence is being contained. Either way, you're trying to think of these candidates position as statecraft itself. I'm shocked that you would think that at your age.

John in Michigan, USA on :

All this is happening because McCain ruthlessly hounded Obama to visit Iraq. Remember, before now, Obama considered Iraq a "distraction". If Obama is finally getting serious and engaging on Iraq, it is about time. Is Obama getting serious? Why is Maliki appearing to side with Obama? It will take several days or even a week before we know the full story. Before this Spiegel article, there were new indications of progress in the Bush administration's negotiations with Maliki over a status-of-forces agreement. There are rumors that a compromise was in the works that would involve a timetable for withdrawal. It could be that Obama's trip is in part an attempt to pre-empt or co-opt these negotiations, so that he can take credit for them. Obama has correctly judged that he can count on the European press to help him create this perception. If this is the case, it is an outrageous interference by a pre-nominee in the foreign policy of the United States, which could well backfire on him by making him look arrogant instead of Presidential. On a side note, until about 5 minutes ago, the left considered Maliki and the Government of Iraq to be a Bush puppet regime, or an Iranian puppet regime (depending on what point was being made) and not the authentic voice of Iraq. Now suddenly Maliki is authentic. Hmmm. As for the supposed Spiegel "[url=http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,566841,00.html]scoop[/url]", they are continuing their tradition of sloppy journalism. They editorialize that Maliki's comments should be interpreted as disagreement with McCain, but they don't permit McCain to comment. They recycle an old quote from Obama, prehaps because he apparently is en route to Afghanistan and therefore unreachable. In effect they are saying, here is what we think Obama would have said about this, if we had been able to reach him. But McCain was reachable. Did they even bother to contact him?

SC on :

John: Here is an interesting take back on July 9 posted by Mohammed at Iraq the Model when all this first became public - well before Spiegel's story. http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2008/07/why-iraq-is-changing-its-tune-on.html Bottom line: Maliki also faces elections and has a base to play to as well. But Maliki accommodates Bush and will also accommodate McCain as needs be. Funny, but politics does seem universal.

John in Michigan, USA on :

Excellent, excellent link! [url=http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2008/07/why-iraq-is-changing-its-tune-on.html]Here it is in clickable form[/url]. The Surge has prevented civil war, but the situation is delicate. Any formal withdrawal from Iraq would have to deal with the problem of who in Iraq gets credit for it. Whichever faction or sect is seen as responsible for a wholesale, formal, US "withdrawal" will be able to portray itself as the "savior" of the Iraqi people. This would cause all other factions or sects to loose a great, great deal of face. Unless it was handled just right, the other factions (Sunni, Kurd, non-Maliki Shiites) would have no alternative but to redeem the lost honor via violence. Such violence might be contained short of civil war, but even so, a great deal of additional blood would have been shed. It is wrong to treat the 'timetable for withdrawal' concept as a mere logistical or security problem. It is not simply a case of, how fast can US equipment be removed, how soon are Iraqi forces available to take over security, etc. Withdrawal would have to be an incredibly delicate diplomatic maneuver as well. Probably, the best way to withdraw would be to at all costs avoid calling it a withdrawal. It is interesting to speculate if the relevant people in the Bush administration and McCain campaign understand this subtlety. One way to interpret the US position in favor of "permanent bases" in Iraq is that we have no real need for bases; instead we are using this terminology to avoid calling the withdrawal a withdrawal.

Pat Patterson on :

John-How did you do that without ending up in Comment Purgatory?

John in Michigan, USA on :

You have to limit the number of links in the post. I don't know what the magic number of links is, but I have never had a problem with 1 to 3 links per post.

Joerg - Atlantic Review on :

I wish I knew the magic number of links for this. We use Akismet spam protection, but I don't know how it works. Very useful for making clickable links is this firefox add-on: [url]https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4763[/url] Just select BBcode for Atlantic Review. (And HTML for most other blogs).

Pat Patterson on :

Lately quite a few of my comments have been "embraced" a little too long even though I have not provided a link but merely typed in the URL. I'll try the BBCode but I will not hold my breath. Still even then the wait is worth it as I generally find the posts and the comments stimulating and based on some knowledge of the issues discussed even if I find myself unpersuaded. It's a compliment Joerg!

SC on :

John: Oops! If you liked the previous link, I think you'll enjoy this one too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7504571.stm Seems that Spiegel didn't quite get it right - at least according to the BBC. What Speigel "broke" was a translation of Maliki's spoken remarks, apparently. What's a pol to do these days, when the media can't be relied upon?

Fuchur on :

I'm not so sure that European love for Obama would fade so quickly. After all, these things aren't about realism. Europeans don't care enough about American politics to judge an American president by his record. It's much more about symbols or feelings. Obama would be the perceived first and foremost as the first black American president. That's a powerful symbol, and unless he screws up as badly as Bush did, I think that this will overshadow pretty much everything he does. At least, I'm certain that something like asking for more troops for Afghanistan won't harm his reputation at all.

Joerg - Atlantic Review on :

I am not saying that Obama will be unpopular, but I do believe that the current love will fade quickly. Obama would not benefit very long from being the first black president. (Not quite comparable, but still: Does Merkel still benefit from being the first female chancellor, who also happens to be from the former East Germany? I don't see such benefits, but perhaps I am underestimating this sort of thing.) Anyway, I believe Obama's current popularity in Europe is [b]not[/b] based on his skin color or family history. Rather it is that vision thing. And his charisma. He brings hope back into politics. That is wonderful. IMHO, many Europeans are envious that there is no such politician here, who makes us overcome our cynicism. Six months after his election as president (if that happens), Obama's fans in America and Europe will realize that he cannot meet their expectations.

John in Michigan, USA on :

"Obama's current popularity in Europe is not based on his skin color or family history. Rather it is that vision thing. And his charisma." To suggest that his skin color (or more accurately, his self-selected ethnic identity) is irrelevant, is absurd. It certainly contributes to his popularity and newsworthiness, in the US and Europe. Geraline Ferrarro and Hillary Clinton were right: it may be taboo to talk about it, but it is there, in the US and in Europe. But I agree it isn't entirely or even mostly his ethnic identity. Family history meaning that he grew up overseas? Mixed race? Communist parents? Charisma undeniably is a huge factor. His charisma is most effective giving prepared speeches to large audiences, 1 on 1 he is noticeably less charismatic but still above average. His wife has it too. Vision thing. This to me revisits the question discussed here many months ago, is it fair to label Obama a socialist (as Americans define the term)? Obviously we are not talking 'pure' socialism but a mixed system that leans much more towards socialism than is the US norm. If we accept that label, then I would agree that he has "the vision thing" and it is why many Europeans are attracted to him. If we reject the label socialist (or triangulating socialist if you prefer), we are left with a hodge-podge of proposals with no unifying theme and a lot of charm. What exactly is Obama's vision, if not socialistic?

Fuchur on :

I think there's no doubt that Obama's ideas are well within Democrat mainstream. There's no point in renaming the Democrats "Socialists". This would water down the word "socialist" to the point where it becomes meaningless. But I guess I can't come up with a "better" label for Obama... Solidarity?! I don't know... Actually, I'm not even sure where to put him within the Democrats. Right now, "general opinion" seems to agree that he's moving to the center (but I don't keep close enough attention to be able to validate this).

Joerg - Atlantic Review on :

Anybody around here to remember Bill Clinton's first two years in office? How was he perceived in Europe? Initially popular, but then not? My memory of this time is not the best. (I was still in high school.) Like Obama, Bill Clinton was very charismatic and smart and understood Europe, but he was not willing to intervene on the Balkans at first... He got criticized for that... If the shit hits the fan in Ukraine, Belarus, Turkey or on the Balkans again, Obama is likely to stay out of it. And Europe will complain. And the left did not like Clinton's international (IMF, G8) and domestic (welfare reform) economic policies.

Joerg - Atlantic Review on :

@ Fuchur [i]Europeans don't care enough about American politics to judge an American president by his record. [/i] Yes, Colin Powell seems to be still pretty popular over here, despite his responsibility for the Iraq war. Popular opinion seems to forgive him or assume that he was somehow forced to do what he did by Cheney and Bush.

Fuchur on :

[i]Rather it is that vision thing. And his charisma. [/i] Yes, absolutely! [i]Six months after his election as president (if that happens), Obama's fans in America and Europe will realize that he cannot meet their expectations.[/i] I think the difference is that Europeans don't really expect anything specific from Obama. So, unless commits a major screw-up, there's not much he can do wrong.

John in Michigan, USA on :

I wrote [url=http://atlanticreview.org/archives/1123-Top-Obama-Aide-No-Free-Ride-for-Europe.html#c15208]this[/url] also in response to your comment re the vision thing. Also it occurs to me that a better word for the type of socialism I am talking about is 'solidarity'.

Joe Noory on :

Our politics will remain little more than a spectacle to them - this may dawn on a few of them taking a train to the rally when they get off at S-Bahnhof Zoo to attend it.

influx on :

What would dawn on Europeans at Bahnhof Zoo? That they should have gotten off another station to get to the Victory Column?

Joe Noory on :

Disinterested participation in a spectacle of (in this case) other people's political lives. As Zyme note, things like an incredibly ridiculous and simplitic expectation that he's a European in his mind - a kind of Manchurian candidate there to serve their needs and give Europe something else that would come at no cost to them. Or if nothing else, someone new for them to hate. You know, some sort of change of scenery.

influx on :

"Disinterested"? How do you know? You make these sweeping generalizations about people without providing the slightest bit of evidence. Just to remind you: the speech hasn't even happened yet, so I would be a bit more hesitant about already judging people's motivations for attending it. What makes you think that "Zyme's" opinion is representative of Europeans in general? Just asking.

Joe Noory on :

We've read in these very pages, in other blogs, and in the media just what it is that non-electors who would not be governed under the US presidential elections think they want out of it, and it displays a lack of seriousness (what do they care anyway,) a lack of familiarity, and betrays the fact that they don't care about what the candidate's positions really are - they just want to see a sort of dramatic-statement action in November that will satisfy their emotions for one day. Besides, are you suggesting that the US voter should set aside their one issues of who governs them and take any significant amount of concideration for those not governed, not involved, and not taxed over their own? Especially when their general opinion of how Americans should govern themselves is almost universally critical, no matter what it is? No way. In genuine societies, voters elect on their conscience for their own reasons - not based on ahall of mirrors built by the yack-arati from within and from abroad, or from a population that has virtually no stake in the issues over the American public's own stake. Just think about it for a moment - how incredibly insane the very idea of paying any significant attention to the desire of non-citizens and non-residents really is. It's overarching and dispalys a real lack of the understanding or respect of soverignty and a government-by-the-people who elect those who govern THEM, and advance laws they ompose on THEMSELVES as body. Just take a second and think about it. On the flip-side, various Americans have opinions about elections abroad AFTER they occur, but to virtually no degree at all during a campaign, unless the issue at hand is a rigged vote. I'm sure that will evoke the tired, unproven, pavlovian responses of "Bush stole the election", etc., etc. - and if that is you instinct to say that, you'll never be taken seriously by Americans in general, and you certainly wouldn't hear from me again, because the cheapness and the lack of any need to back up that sort of allegation fits precisely the idea that the person making it simply doesn't care about the veracity of their statement or the outcome of saying it.

influx on :

You could have saved those two last paragraphs for someone else. I didn't suggest anything like that anywhere, and I don't quite see how what I wrote relates at all to your diatribe. "Just think about it for a moment - how incredibly insane the very idea of paying any significant attention to the desire of non-citizens and non-residents really is." I've thought about it, and it seems to me that you're the one paying much more attention to it than anyone else around here, which may be why you do come across a little kooky at points, sorry. Me, I couldn't really care too much about what Europeans think or do, I just wanted to point out that I have no problem with them speaking their minds.

Joe Noory on :

Anyone can speak their mind - including you and me, and eaach of us can embarass ourselves all we like. The last two paragraphs are the motive behind my position on this. It says something about how sad and empty a society must be when simple principals of the acceptance of the choices a population make for itself are though to be not important enough that there are editorials that come up like clockwork saying that non-Americans should be able to vote in American elections, as well as so many other stale, repeated points. More to the point about the attitude with which American affairs are treated: it isn't about being educated, intelligent, wise to the world, all of those things that are used to explain the contrast between Americans and Europeans, it is this the superficiality and ignorance evident in the fact that the same sorts of themes, thought experiments, and opinions are recycled quadrennially. No matter what happens in the US, there is the requisite display of disappointment and shock about something after it's done. It's followed by a deflated feeling, and the occasional pundit surmising that they just don't understand Americans. To look at it without sentiment and in its' most basic terms, it's pedantry founded in ignorance, a dissinterest resulting from thinking human nature is predictable, and lazy press coverage. It also might originate in the fact that social democracies are boring places to live, where changes are always cushioned by bureaucratic meddling and correction after the fact. But one thing remains certain: Europeans take an unhealthy interest in our elections - far more than anyone on earth takes in European domestic affairs, and it probably comes at the expense of interest in local events. So to address your point, I never suggested that people weren't entitiled to their opinion. At the same time I'm entitled to mine, and to air the simple fact that the US isn't their country, and that they really should establish one of their own. They should drop their cynicism and their special interests for a moment - try to find a few serious and genuine principles to found it on that's at the core of their being, and create something of their own to worry and obsess over. Maybe then, they can build some of the same sort of innocent belief in people that Americans try find and idealize sometimes in vain - but at least they'll stop trying find something they want for themselves in a United Europe vicariously by kicking us in the nuts every other day over our own political choices.

influx on :

Fair enough. Even though I think it's natural and obvious that people care more about US elections than, I don't know, domestic Italian or Belgian or German affairs. The US has slightly more influence on international politics than any European country, wouldn't you say? I also fail to see a lack of worrying over domestic politics in European countries. Oh, and one last thing: can you provide an example for one of "the editorials that come up like clockwork saying that non-Americans should be able to vote in American elections"? Or rather, a couple of examples, since they seem to be appearing in the dozens. And please, no nutty blogger examples.

John in Michigan, USA on :

"I am pretty sure that Europe's current love for Obama will be over within half a year of his presidency, should he be elected. More realism will prevail." I agree. Obama claims his childhood in Indonesia gives him a special ability to understand and relate to the Muslim world, that will result in goodwill. I think this goodwill, if it materializes at all, will have the same brief duration as the European love affair.

Pat Patterson on :

Obviously I am not a fan of Sen. Obama and I will think even less of him if he does go to Europe and criticizes the Europeans for any perceived or actual shortcoming. Because then it's simply a photo op with no substance other than how will the focus groups at home react. And something I learned when visiting Europe is that I am a guest and only the most grasping of boors would criticize their hosts. Now if he wants to defend American actions and interests, when pigs fly, then that is a fitting subject.

Joerg - Atlantic Review on :

[i]And something I learned when visiting Europe is that I am a guest and only the most grasping of boors would criticize their hosts.[/i] Really? Wow. I thought Europeans (esp. Germans) would not mind such criticism, esp. since we often criticize the US, when visiting the US. I got the impression that many Germans don't mind foreigners criticizing the German government. Often we join in to the criticism and explain why your criticism is too weak... No?

Pat Patterson on :

I wish I could claim that others don't criticize but I just think that under those circumstances its tacky and useless. Plus I do live in a resort town, or it likes to think of it self as such, and by and large foreign tourists do not criticize specifics but rather the absence of things they are used to getting easily at home. Well, the smokers are usually shocked to find themselves outside, rain or shine, all public buildings taking that drag from demon nicotine. I still think that Sen. Obama does have a certain popularity in Europe and if his criticism or suggestions are truly revolutionary then he becomes just another knucklehead speaking truth to power because he will become just another politician, remember Tom Lantos, lecturing the Europeans when they feel it should be just the opposite. Better stick to the boilerplate of a shared history and leave the big stick for the private meetings.

Zyme on :

Well a speech at the Column of Victory would sure add to Obama´s rhetorik of "Change" - in peaceful Europe of today. The column was errected honoring Prussia´s victories over Denmark, Austria and France after all. Although I highly doubt we will have comparable disputes in the foreseeable future :) "Europe will be challenged by a President Barack Obama to contribute more to global security and will no longer have the "easy out" of pandering to anti-Bush sentiment, according to a top adviser to the Democratic candidate." Very funny. He sure can ask for more support. Whether he is going to get more is an entirely different question. Anti-Bush sentiments may have played a tempting and decisive role in selling foreign politics to the European public, but it would be naive to assume that it played a major role in decision making. Among European leaders national interests will have prevailed far more often. And this is where I cannot see any substantial difference with Obama taking office. SC "Obama's luster is sure be rubbed off eventually, Joerg. But it may last longer in Europe than you think; in particular, if he and Democrat party are seen to undertake an activist domestic agenda to correct all the "well-known" ills of American society while at the same time undertaking an international agenda that is in accord with European enthusiasms." This is where I have to strongly disagree. Actual politics conducted close to European values by the democratic party will not help here. It is not the democratic party that still has this major bonus among the European media. It is solely Mr Obama who has. Clearly this could be seen when he and Clinton where striving for leadership in the primaries. A European press favouring the democratic party in general would never have been so negative towards Clinton and favored Obama so strongly. Instead it would have focused on firing at McCain. On the contrary I expect transatlantic relations to worsen most when Obama becomes president. Nobody would expect anything good from McCain, so he could turn out as a positive surprise. Towards Obama though tehre are extraordinary high expectations from Europe. Once he failed in our eyes several times, a feeling of final frustration will set in here, making the people believe that if not even Obama is close to us, no American will ever be. Even more Obama´s lack of experience in foreign politics will create the constant danger for him of making exactly the same diplomatic fauxpas as his predecessor from a European perspective.

SC on :

Strongly disagree, Zyme? Why, I'm shocked! ;) Understand, that I'm only arguing for a little more time than the paltry 6 months horizon on the Obama glow that Joerg was giving. However, you've piqued my curiosity again when you suggest that expectations are unreasonably high, in parts of Europe at least, for an Obama presidency. But, what exactly are these expectations? Perhaps even the most jaded of Europeans would concede that 6 months is a very short time: what then for those who aren't? My observation of human nature suggests that those who want to believe will grasp at most anything that will help sustain that belief. An Obama presidency that acts in the manner I suggested in those first six months might provide that morsel to sustain the hope that great things are yet to come. These things have been known, to happen. Come to think of it, I believe they may be happening even now here in the States. :)

Zyme on :

I guess the biggest expectation is that he is considered to be European in his mind. Once the news show him repeatedly and rigidly in conflict with EU or national representatives, this expectation will be disappointed. While I consider those conflicts to be only natural, they will inevitably destroy his nimbus.

ADMINISTRATOR on :

Please note that by default the comments in this blog are threaded rather than linear, i.e. some of the latest comments and responses to comments are not at the bottom, but in the middle. At the top of the comments section you have the option to change the view from threaded to linear, which enable you to see the latest comments at the end of the thread.

franchie on :

"someone new for them to hate. You know, some sort of change of scenery" I suggest you to be candidate, you'v got a great potential :p

Joe Noory on :

Hardly. Plus I wasn't born on US territory.

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