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What can be expected of Europe in Iraq?Posted by Nanne Zwagerman in European Issues, Transatlantic Relations on Saturday, June 7. 2008
Editor's note by Nanne: The following entry was written by Migeru, an editor of the progressive community blog 'The European Tribune'. It is a scenario on the chances for European action on Iraq, based upon the principles of 'human rights' and 'riding the wave'.
As a recent post by Jörg revealed, there may be renewed interest in a European policy on Iraq. Beyond the current lack of any coordinated policy and the expectation that a European policy should consist of helping out America, a broad range of options exists. This shortened version of Migeru's European Tribune diary is a first step in exploring some of those options.
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Pat Patterson
- #1 - 2008-06-08 02:07 - (Reply)
Probably two minor problems before the Europeans can ride to the rescue, carefully covering up the Crusader regalia. Well, actually three. The first being that the shooting hasn't stopped and it is similar to that snowball's chances in H... before any European nation not currently there will send troops to defend the caring professionals. The second in being that if the current trends hold true the US is unlikely to turn over any influence it has in Iraq to the Europeans.
Migeru
- #1.1 - 2008-06-08 10:31 - (Reply)
You will notice I am not advocating Europe to send troops in. I agree with you that the shooting hasn't stopped and moreover I don't think a foreign force can make is stop without substantial brutality and casualties which the US isn't willing to provide either.
Pat Patterson
- #1.1.1 - 2008-06-08 16:42 - (Reply)
Minor quibble in that Yugoslavia has been an example of a country without a working constitution since its constituent parts fell away from each other after Tito died. There is no desire for partition in Iraq, unlike Yugoslavia which accomplished partition at the point of not suicide bombings but full pitch modern manuever warfare. And as to a vision of a future Iraq I tend to think of 1866 and look to the US after its Civil War when practically every major European leader and newspaper proclaimed that the US was too weak, in spite of the outcome of the war, to hold itself together and would eventually be forced to partition itself.
Elisabetta
- #2 - 2008-06-08 02:54 - (Reply)
Well so the French are dreaming up another wildly arbitrary plan for partitioning the local wogs. Doesn't this douchebag understand that Iraq has been sovereign since 2004? Violating your constitution at hte behest of your former colonial masters isn't going to effect that 'spirit of dignity', no? Kurdistan has been de facto autonomous since '91 and de jure from 04 (within a granted evolving federal system). How have the Turks thrown a spanner in the works? (thats nobody's business but the Turks).
John in Michigan, USA
- #2.1 - 2008-06-08 06:56 - (Reply)
"thats nobody's business but the Turks"
Migeru
- #2.2 - 2008-06-08 10:45 - (Reply)
I'm not French, and I thought people had snapped out of Cheese-Eating-Surrender-Monkey-bashing mode a couple of years ago already. Are you still stuck in 2003?
Nanne
- #2.3 - 2008-06-08 12:16 - (Reply)
Iraqi sovereignty is a myth. The US has just started giving back the airspace above 29,000 feet in some parts of the country and seems to have permanent designs for the airspace below, as well as planning 50 permanent bases, and so on (see independent story).
Elisabetta
- #2.3.1 - 2008-06-08 13:31 - (Reply)
Nanne even if you concede that a story entitled 'the secret plan to keep Iraq und US control' is the gospel truth and that an unnamed Iraqi who maintains--"Washington also wants control of Iraqi airspace below 29,000ft and the right to pursue its "war on terror" in Iraq, giving it the authority to arrest anybody it wants and to launch military campaigns without consultation", a putative agmt between Washington and Baghdad would not, point in fact, destroy Iraqi sovereignty.
Migeru
- #2.3.1.1 - 2008-06-08 13:47 - (Reply)
The Independent cannot afford to print a paper edition? What? QUOTE: Also anonymous leaks, no wonder the NYT is a joke of a paper and cannot afford to print a paper edition either.
This emerging American negotiating position faces a potential buzz saw of opposition from Iraq, with its fragmented Parliament, weak central government and deep sensitivities about being seen as a dependent state, according to these officials. ... The American negotiating position for a formal military-to-military relationship, one that would replace the current United Nations mandate, is laid out in a draft proposal that was described by White House, Pentagon, State Department and military officials on ground rules of anonymity. It also includes less controversial demands that American troops be immune from Iraqi prosecution, and that they maintain the power to detain Iraqi prisoners. However, the American quest for protections for civilian contractors is expected to be particularly vexing, because in no other country are contractors working with the American military granted protection from local laws. Some American officials want contractors to have full immunity from Iraqi law, while others envision less sweeping protections. These officials said the negotiations with the Iraqis, expected to begin next month, would also determine whether the American authority to conduct combat operations in the future would be unilateral, as it is now, or whether it would require consultation with the Iraqis or even Iraqi approval.
Anonymous
- #2.4 - 2008-06-08 14:16 - (Reply)
a miss in point : jealousy
Kevin Sampson
- #3 - 2008-06-08 06:43 - (Reply)
"Saudi Arabia's oil is sitting under the region where its own Shia minority lives, along the border to Iraq."
Migeru
- #3.1 - 2008-06-08 10:59 - (Reply)
The Ghawar field is likely in decline, having peaked, and Qatif project is currently the single largest oil resource measured by production. [url =http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qatif]Qatif[/url]'s population is almost all Shia and apart from a productive oi field, it has a lot of water (the largest oasis in the world).
Kevin Sampson
- #3.1.1 - 2008-06-08 21:47 - (Reply)
"do you know who to phone to talk to Europe? I don't, yet"
John in Michigan, USA
- #4 - 2008-06-08 08:42 - (Reply)
Human Rights: I spent a while reading Migeru's post and following the links provided. I confess I will probably need some sort of transatlantic encyclopedia to figure out what exactly is meant by "a true concern for Human Rights", In the context of the counterexample provided. Once I figure that out, it will allow me to ask the question, what, if anything, does Mirgeru's "true concern for Human Rights" have in common with the Iraqi Arab, Iraqi Shiite, or Iraqi Kurd conception of human rights? And, can "true" human rights be pursued in a vacuum, without addressing the question of democratic government, rule of law, and economic freedom?
Migeru
- #4.1 - 2008-06-08 11:06 - (Reply)
An "untrue concern for Human Rights" means using human rights as a cover for other geopolitical goals. I say in the post that I would only want the EU to get involved in Iraq with the goal to prevent an escalation of civl war, stop the killings and reach a stable end result through diplomacy. The troop deployment needed to stop a civil war as an external power is larger than even the US is willing to pony up, the level of brutality required is larger than anyone in a Western democracy is willing to be responsible for, and the casualties that would be sustained are, well, politically unsustainable. Now, if diplomacy alone won't work, then nothing will, and that is quite likely. And the EU has few leverage points.
John in Michigan, USA
- #4.1.1 - 2008-06-08 21:44 - (Reply)
"...it is indeed possible that I am out of date..."
Nanne
- #4.1.1.1 - 2008-06-08 23:17 - (Reply)
John,
John in Michigan, USA
- #4.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-09 01:08 - (Reply)
I agree, Iranians have tried to gain control and influence with all the major Iraqi Shiite factions, not just the Mahdi militia, and, as far as anyone can tell, have been more successful with the Badr Corps than with the Mahdi Army. That is why I used the inelegant phrase "which permits the Iraqi street to acknowledge what they've known all along: the Mahdi army is an Iranian front, with a hidden agenda" instead of a more straightforward phrasing.
Migeru
- #4.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-09 08:01 - (Reply)
Thanks for your thoughtful and substantive comments.
Pat Patterson
- #4.1.1.1.2 - 2008-06-09 01:30 - (Reply)
Considering that Sadr is in Qom receiving instruction on how to become a mullah then, yes, he has no religious title other than as a descendant of Muhammed, arguing that he is not favored by Iran seems fanciful. The dagger at the heart of Iran is that traditionally, except for the last few decades, is that the Shia looked to Iraq for philosphical and scholarly leadership, leadership that is currently being supplied by al-Sistani. Who like Ho Chi Minh turned against his hosts as soon as he could. Plus just this weekend Maliki visited Iran to try to calm their fears that Iraq would be used as a jumping off point for an American-Iraqi invasion of Iran. That certainly doesn't sound like the leader of a country that views itself as a 98-pound weakling.
Joe Noory
- #4.1.2 - 2008-06-09 20:03 - (Reply)
Why wouldn't they? They installed the King deposed by an uneducated rogue militant who, although Baathist which had its' origins in fascism, a European invention, later added the notions of Arab nationalists which were inspired by Socialism and authoritarian statism - also European exports.
Elisabetta
- #5 - 2008-06-08 14:37 - (Reply)
I'm not French, and I thought people had snapped out of Cheese-Eating-Surrender-Monkey-bashing mode a couple of years ago already. Are you still stuck in 2003?
quo vadis
- #6 - 2008-06-08 16:52 - (Reply)
It’s difficult to take seriously anyone who produces an analysis of Iraq’s future that fails to take into consideration the changes that have taken place over the previous year.
Joe Noory
- #7 - 2008-06-09 13:40 - (Reply)
I'm not sure there is any point in addressing someone who cites propaganda in an opinion piece, but if you're parsing the autonomy of the Iraqis, I would suggest that they are much further along than the former Yugoslav states were at the same stage. Add Comment
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