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Europe's Changing Attitude on Iraq

Posted by Joerg Wolf in Transatlantic Relations on Tuesday, June 3. 2008

"For the first time since 2003, a consensus is emerging in the EU on the need to do more for Iraq," write Daniel Korski and Richard Gowan of the European Council on Foreign Relations and add: "There is a risk that the United States will not take advantage of this opportunity."

They describe Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's visit to Brussels in April as a catalyst for this changing European attitude:"Even in those countries that most virulently opposed the war, the mood is changing." French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner has repeatedly stated his desire to do more in Iraq. He alsoflew into Nasiriya last weekend, soon after the airbase had come under attack.
Korski and Gowan conclude: 
Getting from private to public statements is a step forward. Shifting from rhetoric to real engagement in Iraq will be an even bigger one.
They also have an interesting suggestion for the US presidential candidates. Read more in the European Council on Foreign Relations blog. Two comments at their blog post confirm that public opinion in Europe is still quite opposed to more support for Iraq. So, I am not holding my breath until European states get more involved in Iraqi reconstruction and diplomatic initiatives.
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Pamela - #1 - 2008-06-03 13:09 - (Reply)

EUnichs

Nanne - #2 - 2008-06-03 13:37 - (Reply)

Europe should have an Iraq policy, the blogs were already discussing this a long time ago. But the policy should not necessarily be to help the current Iraqi administration or the USA. Rather, it should be to set up buffers against the instability within Iraq, in the surrounding countries. Containment was the right policy before the Americans chose to invade, and it still is. The situation remains volatile.

franchie - #3 - 2008-06-03 16:47 - (Reply)

an EU concensus on Irak ?

wow, not any soon I expect ; I just read that Iraki president ask Kouchner for France furnishing "modern arms"... he, to whom in EU that would also make shadow ?

I am though surprised by Kouchner's reply, the arms manufacturers are private, thus they are entitle to decide themselves to whom they ought to sell arms, woarf !

OK, for Irak reconstruction... though Kouchner was one of the few persons that were for Irak war ; he, can we imagine there that the UN and its peace-keepers will replace the american troops ?

I heard that a few months ago (august 2007), from the very Kouchner, So are we sorting out the US embarrassing position there, and recuperate the "baby and the bath water" ?

Joe Noory - #3.1 - 2008-06-03 22:04 - (Reply)

The sale of European weapons in anything but private. The entire process is vetted if not engineered by governments. Look at the "poening up" of Libya. As far as the French and the British governments were concerned, the only issues out there were who could get their grubby mitts on Qaddafi's oil money while they remain silent about the 4 decade long "abu greib" he's been running.

The change in attitude about Iraq comes after 5 years of trying to figure when they can admit that they have to live with the fact that Saddam was deposed, and that their usual interests of selling the poor of the world their overpriced rubbish.

franchie - #3.1.1 - 2008-06-03 22:26 - (Reply)

yes, Joe, but the heading master of that evil tournament is the US administration : after recovering their big amount of money from Lockerbee hijack, suddenly Lybia became a "good pupil" of the democratic boards.

Now, I never support the opened doors policy to that demon ; he is a liar and perfide partner, Sarko is just following his master in Washington

De Gaulle would never had shaked hands with this "traitor"

Pat Patterson - #3.1.1.1 - 2008-06-04 00:56 - (Reply)

Nonsense, the sanctions imposed by the UNSC were lifted in stages before the 2nd Gulf War as Libya acceded to a series of UN imposed conditions. The money went directly to the families of the 270 victims representing 21 different nations that were affected. The individual governments didn't receive any money from Libya. In fact the US, France and Britain warned that they would have nothing to do with arranging compensation because several of the families were alleging that it was blood money. All of the negotiations to lift the sanctions were conducted by the UN during the early, namely Javier Perez de Cuellar and Boutros-Boutros Gahli. It was only after the 2nd Gulf War that Khaddafi admitted to illegally possessing and building WMD.

Plus I also seem to remember that even DeGaulle kissed and made up with Achmed Ben Bella and Ho Chi Minh. So I guess in enlightened circles in Europe if the US accepts Libya's apology and admission of guilt it's indicative of some kind of moral failing. But when France returns to the dance with partners such as Ben Bella or Ho Chi Minh somehow this is an example of superior European political statecraft.

Anonymous - #3.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-04 01:52 - (Reply)

"Plus I also seem to remember that even DeGaulle kissed and made up with Achmed Ben Bella and Ho Chi Minh. So I guess in enlightened circles in Europe if the US accepts Libya's apology and admission of guilt it's indicative of some kind of moral failing. But when France returns to the dance with partners such as Ben Bella or Ho Chi Minh somehow this is an example of superior European political statecraft."

wow, nothing to compare with Kadhafi

Ben Bella and Ho chi minh were fighting in a different perspective, independance, (don't tell me they also were commies, precisely the commusnism represented their liberation)

it's always a pleasure to see you arguing of our supposed superiority when your get on your big horse to recall that basic argument :lol:

about the "nonsense" that you graciousely allegate to me, I return you the compliment : ie an article in our army paper from a DST agent (I am afraid, you'll need google translate, or may-be, if you click on the name you'll find the english version of his book :

http --- www.armees.com/Libye-les-dessous-de-la-diplomatie-parallele,24052.html ---

Pat Patterson - #3.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-04 03:33 - (Reply)

Could you check the link because it doesn't go to the site you indicated.

franchie - #3.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-04 11:33 - (Reply)

Pat, I wrote the link so that it didn't go in the spams filter ; you just have to add http://WWW.... and take off ----

Pat Patterson - #3.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-04 11:48 - (Reply)

No, that doesn't work but I did find the correct link but it hasn't posted yet.

Joe Noory - #3.1.1.1.1.1.1.2 - 2008-06-07 01:42 - (Reply)

No problems before Bush? are you kidding? As an American who spent too much time in France, I can say first hand that this statement is a gigantic lie.

as for "owning" truth, is your suggestion that the Pan Am 103 & UTA bombings were "convenient accidents" meant to punish Qaddafi your idea of some sort of truth? if the only idea you can come up with is a shallow "truther style" opinion that the US and French governments downed those planes and killed civilians, then you not only know nearly nothing about international affairs, but even less about human nature and the concept of truth itself.

what next? Your "truth" about Bush causing 9-11 because you read it on "Common Dreams" where they prefer that we all share the exact same common thoughts.

Joe Noory - #3.1.1.2 - 2008-06-04 01:02 - (Reply)

The government did not recover the Lockerbie settlement. The families of the victims did. As for being on the take, the entire effort to get the Lybian to come clean was undermined thus:

Thursday, August 14, 2003

UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- France is holding up the settlement for families of the victims of the 1988 Pan Am bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, because it wants Libya to pay more for the bombing of a French UTA airliner in 1989, a U.S. official said Thursday.

Wednesday, lawyers for Libya and for families of the 270 Pan Am victims agreed on a framework for $2.7 billion in compensation.

As part of the deal, Libya was to send a letter to the United Nations officially accepting responsibility for the bombing and agreeing to pay compensation to each family in exchange for the lifting of sanctions against the country.

But France has "intimidated the Libyans" into delaying the delivery of that letter, a Bush administration official said.

The motive for the french government to get a settlement from the Lybians was to get the money because it seemed possible. The effort initiated by the families of the victims of Pan Am 103, which began shortly after the bombing, was to punish the Lybians.

So spare me the nonsense. We're talking about a rush to sell weapons to Qaddafi in the same way that the CCCP did in the 70s, even though Libya had no threats to speak of, and was being built up by the Soviets at the time to become a threat.

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1 - 2008-06-04 12:51 - (Reply)

So Joe, back in your good offices !

It appears that Lockerbie and Tenere were convenient accidents to make a pressure on Lybia ; there, the American and French goals were collusive ; though the Americans got a much higher dedommagement for Lockerbie victims : 10 millions dollars pro/family while the french families got a laughable compensation in comparaison.

That was effectively an argument for french diplomaty to blocate the UN embargo to be taken off.

though Lybia did get back her money through the nurses crisis, EU had to pay, even for the american part...

http :// www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2001/03/PEAN/14934

("le monde diplomatique" is not "le monde")

"We're talking about a rush to sell weapons to Qaddafi"

Yeah, Claro:

1- Americans,
2- Brits,
3- France, Germany, and tutti quanti....

so the non-sense ? Booooooh

Joe Noory - #3.1.1.2.1.1 - 2008-06-04 15:19 - (Reply)

So they used their seat at the UN to get the Lybians to pay out on the UTA crash, at the cost of a longer and harder effort to bet the Lybians to redress the Lockerbie bombing, and you call this "cooperation"?

Do you really thing people will look at that sort of tortured logic, and have any respect for the people who promote it?

As for Le Monde Diplomatique, they are about as irrationally anti-American as you can get outside of Liberation and Pouriel International, and have more than once been willing to lie to prop up that view.

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.1.1 - 2008-06-04 15:37 - (Reply)

I love how you twist the news to your advantage,

so we have our sided views as you also have your sided views

cooperation was almost in the demonisation of Lybia, instead of Iran and Syria... do you have an explanation for that ?

Carter and his guru had already influenced the diplomaties

Joe Noory - #3.1.1.2.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-04 15:49 - (Reply)

You did the twisting. What part of "Lockerbie settlement blocked by French UNSC seat to expedite UTA settlement" from ALL the raportage is "twisted" and by whom?

You're trying to tell me that this should be called "cooperation" and that the typical venal act of the French government is something we're supposed to thank them for?

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-04 15:54 - (Reply)

blah aaa woarf :lol:

Kevin Sampson - #3.1.1.2.1.2 - 2008-06-05 00:19 - (Reply)

Yeah, Claro:

1- Americans,
2- Brits,
3- France, Germany, and tutti quanti....

This would be much more convincing if you listed exactly what we are supposed to have provided him, and a source for this information.

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1 - 2008-06-05 15:07 - (Reply)

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/614C66F7-4429-48C4-A325-99728D7EF121.htm

http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2001/03/PEAN/14934

http://www.armees.com/Libye-les-dessous-de-la-diplomatie-parallele,24052.html

if needed, I'll bring more later on

John in Michigan, USA - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1 - 2008-06-05 19:25 - (Reply)

Keep trying, franchie. Maybe you better go ahead and post those massive links you've been holding back.

Of the three you posted, one one, from al-Jazeera, even discusses arms sales. And all it says is that the British will sign "defense contracts" and have "defense cooperation". This could mean anything, including weapons. No evidence presented about the other countries you accused.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there had been some modest arms sales, but most of the cooperation is economic. No-one will experience joy over these arms sales, but sales to a country that abandons WMD is far, far, far less of a problem then sales to a country like Iran that has not done so.

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1 - 2008-06-05 20:33 - (Reply)

is this link for UK ok, instead of al Jazera ?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/30/africa/30libya.php

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0111-02.htm

the unknown path of arms traffics :

http://sundaytimes.lk/080413/International/international0004.html

ok Putin is also in, and China too,

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/15-04-2008/104887-putin_libya-0

So, I would say :

1 - Russia
2 - China
3 - UK
4 - France and diverse EU countries

Where are the US ? before Kadhafi became a good pupil, he had some kind of mustard, similar to Saddam's (?)

Kevin Sampson - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-06 03:48 - (Reply)

'Allegations that Italian dictator Benito Mussolini ordered the deployment of the blister agent sulfur mustard in Libya imply that the state's first experience with chemical weapons occurred during the 1920s. Libya did not begin to build an offensive chemical warfare (CW) program until the mid-1980s.[1] During that time, however, Libya rapidly erected development sites at Rabta, Tarhuna and Sebha for chemical weapons production. The development of Libya's chemical weapons facilities, however, could not have had the success it did without the assistance of foreign suppliers, the majority of which came from Western Europe.'


http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Libya/3944.html

ROFLMAO!

John in Michigan, USA - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.2 - 2008-06-06 03:52 - (Reply)

Unless you are bored, don't bother reading Franchie's new links. I did, and they still don't say what she wants them to say.

Pat Patterson - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.2.1 - 2008-06-06 04:02 - (Reply)

I'll confess to reading the Villemarest link, translated of course, and agree that it simply didn't address the issue at all unless typing in the words Libya, Michigan and London somehow proves the US and the Masons were behind it all.

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.2.2 - 2008-06-06 12:09 - (Reply)

of course YOU are the ones that hold the TRUTH, that stand on the "chosen" side of the balance... booooh !

sorry, my american prism gets sometimes out of order

ROFLMAO!

Don S - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.2.2.1 - 2008-06-06 15:27 - (Reply)

Well.... yes, franchie. I am invariably correct on all matters.

Isn't everyone? ;)

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.2.2.1.1 - 2008-06-06 21:40 - (Reply)

But, Don, you are a lovable and exceptionnal exception :lol:

Joe Noory - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3 - 2008-06-06 18:48 - (Reply)

- The IHT piece addresses UK and RF arms deals, not American ones as you initially alledged, and yes, your prism on America doesn't seem to include the actual America but the one the lowest common denominator of european tabloid culture wishes existed. It is, after all, so much easier to have and hate an enemy that isn't going to actually act on the invective directed at them.

- The "commondreams" link is an OPINION piece with no citations, depending on allegations that Qaddafi was "installed" by the CIA in 69, a decade where, apparently, every government on earth was the result of a CIA coup, even the MARXISTS, Nassar-avoiding wing of Arab Nationalism like Qaddafi's - while the KGB were planting daisies and feeding the poor... By the way, the author, Eric Margolis, is a "truther".

- The David Ariel piece points to the Libyans and the italian mafia, not any UK/RF/US falut and evil.

- Putin would sell his grandmother for a nickel.

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3.1 - 2008-06-06 21:37 - (Reply)

"It is, after all, so much easier to have and hate an enemy that isn't going to actually act on the invective directed at them.

Till Clinton we had no major problem

it's the Bush junior administration that arised the antagonist feelings, not only in EU, but world wide ; as far France is concerned, we could call them "resistance", just for justifying its condescent and contmpted attitude toward us ; who initiated the french-bashing ?

Pat Patterson - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3.1.1 - 2008-06-06 23:01 - (Reply)

Just who the heck were all those people screaming and chanting on the Fourth of July in Grovenor Square in 1968 and any other year you might want to mention. Considering I still have a lump of scar tissue from one of those peace loving activists who took umbrage that I had been invited in for the Fourth of July picnic and concert I could have sworn that they were not yelling for the embassy staff to share the hot dogs and sodas. Most if not all, including the instant "Canadians" were demanding arrest and trial for those warmoungers LBJ and that new warmounger-to-be Richard Nixon. Well, actually only a few were suggesting a trial while most of the others, like Alice's Red Queen, were demanding sentence first, trial later. Ah, yes it was all peace, love and understanding until Bush fils rocked the boat of global good feelings and unity.

And it should be noted even more violent demos against the war were taking place in Germany and France at the same time.Maybe franchie simply has a more elastic definition of what caused the rise of these antogonistic feelings?

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3.1.1.1 - 2008-06-07 20:50 - (Reply)

nah, you forgot US, UK, much more numerous... Italy, Spain ...

Pat Patterson - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-07 21:09 - (Reply)

Grosvenor Square is in the UK.

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-08 00:22 - (Reply)

oh my, OK, UK

Joe Noory - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3.1.2 - 2008-06-11 03:06 - (Reply)

So the decades of bashing America is not to be noted on the part of many Europeans in general, and the French in particular, but make any one of them feel similarly with even the smallest taste of it, and OH! The world is ending!

I'm thinking of the thin skinned reaction people have to dopey stories that only had a one-week lifespan in the US such as "freedom fries" and "old Europe", and you still get a violent reaction years later. Pathetic.

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3.1.2.1 - 2008-06-11 09:34 - (Reply)

Chouchou, I am looking for your absolution, he no pasaran !

WTF are you telling there

Joe Noory - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3.1.2.1.1 - 2008-06-11 14:14 - (Reply)

My absolution? My absolution for sins before God? Are Europeans somehow permitted to think of themselves as Gods with their special rayonnement that they have to offer the rest of humanity? What next, theories about European genetic superiority?

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3.1.2.1.1.1 - 2008-06-11 16:58 - (Reply)

special rayonnement

yeah, unfortunately for you historical :lol:

Joe Noory - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3.1.2.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-11 17:50 - (Reply)

It isn't unfortunate for the rest of the world outside of France. They can look at that history and learn.

As for the rest of it, I don't know what you're desperate to find in other people's opinions.

franchie - #3.1.1.2.1.2.1.1.1.3.1.2.1.1.1.1.1 - 2008-06-11 17:58 - (Reply)

I don't know what you're desperate to find in other people's opinions.

how they envy us :lol:

Elisabetta - #4 - 2008-06-03 21:32 - (Reply)

Chutzpah!!!

Someone has to swing with tackle the size of a Grand National winner to make such a pronouncement: thanks for the concern.

If the French and British could come up with another plan for the Iraqi region, that would be great.

John in Michigan, USA - #5 - 2008-06-05 02:08 - (Reply)

From the European Council on Foreign Relations blog"

"Support for what Barack Obama calls a 'diplomatic surge' across the Middle East? Absolutely."

Hah! If the military surge isn't working, why on earth would Obama call for a diplomatic surge?

Various conservatives have been calling for a diplomatic surge to complement the military surge, ever since it became clear some time ago that the surge was working. But, that blog doesn't dare associate anything good with a surge that conservatives support, so they attribute the idea to Saint Obama.

In fact Obama occasionally makes rhetorical overtures to independent and even conservative voters, for example shyly revealing a certain admiration for Reagan from time to time. Obama probably did use the phrase "diplomatic surge", for just that reason, to make what he sees as an overture to pro-surge voters, but the ECFR blog and the general mania for Euro-bama seems to have missed this subtlety altogether.

ADMIN - #6 - 2008-06-05 21:06 - (Reply)

Please note that by default the comments in this blog are threaded rather than linear, i.e. some of the latest comments and responses to comments are not at the bottom, but in the middle.

At the top of the comments section you have the option to change the view from threaded to linear, which enable you to see the latest comments at the end of the thread.

franchie - #7 - 2008-06-10 23:45 - (Reply)

back on tthe polemic :

"The absolute record military spending is held by the USA, with 40% of global spending, and the largest budget since the end of World War II. Great Britain ranked second with 59.7 billion dollars-these two countries wre engaged in major war soon in Iraq. China has topped France to take pole for the third place with 58.3 billion dollars "

so :

1- US
2- UK
3-China
4-France


http://www.rue89.com/2008/06/10/le-business-des-armes-se-porte-comme-un-charme

http://www.sipri.org/

http://www.sipri.org/contents/milap/milex/aprod/transparency.html#5

Kevin Sampson - #7.1 - 2008-06-11 00:21 - (Reply)

So what?

Joe Noory - #7.2 - 2008-06-11 02:56 - (Reply)

Don't you think that if they were made in China, that they would cost half as much?

franchie - #8 - 2008-06-11 01:32 - (Reply)

just kidding I am sure


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